What does changing developer dilution do?

[msbarnes]

Besides increasing time and saving development costs.

I mean, why do some people go D76 stock, 1+1, 1+3, and etc. Does it affect the speed, grain, sharpness, and etc.?

 

[Ko.Fe.]

D76 was too harsh, if stock. It is good, for me, if only 1:3.

 

[Bob T]

For the most part the more diluted the developer is the sharper the negative but at a cost of increased grain.

 

[charjohncarter]

There are some advantages to longer development times. One is more accurate timing, so you will have a more consistent and repeatable development scheme. Another is you can stretch the time between agitation cycles, some of us use this to control our highlights. This highlight control is a more accurate way of compensation which many try to do (mostly with erratic results) with stand development.

In the end if you want a full tonal result when printing your negatives the above is a good way to go, this was 10+ stops (not counting the sunlight on the dryer and washing machine):

 

[Pioneer]

Like charjohncarter says, my development is more accurate and more repeatable when I extend the time. A few seconds variability is much less critical when the time is 10 minutes instead of 5 minutes.

 

[Roger Hicks]

For the most part the more diluted the developer is the sharper the negative but at a cost of increased grain.

Typically a very slight (<1/3 stop) speed increase too.

Also, using developers "one shot" is the only route to repeatability unless you use a fully "seasoned" and replenished developer -- but this loses you at least 2/3 stop of film speed.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

It gives slightly higher sharpness, at the expense of slightly more visible grain. Most developers, including D-76 and Rodinal, give lower contrast in light tones with more dilution. D-76 looks nicer to me diluted 1+1 than used straight. It also lengthens developing times, which is useful if you have to use a high temperature or if the film you're using needs a really short time in undiluted developer.

If money concerns you, diluting saves money. Don't worry about money, though. Developers are CHEAP and its not worth choosing one just for cost.

 

[bonatto]

I'm going to try developing Arista Premium 400 which I currently develop at 1+1 D76 for 10mins.

If I change the dilution to 1+3, do I simply have to double the time?

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I'm going to try developing Arista Premium 400 which I currently develop at 1+1 D76 for 10mins.

If I change the dilution to 1+3, do I simply have to double the time?

I don't know about the time, but be aware that D-76 must have 8 ounces of the stock solution in the final diluted solution for each roll of film. So, a single roll has to be developed by itself in a 32 ounce tank if you use the 1+3 dilution. D-76 is not a strong developer, and doesn't take heavy dilution well. If you develop at 1+3 in a smaller tank, you'll get underdeveloped film.

 

[msbarnes]

I'm going to try developing Arista Premium 400 which I currently develop at 1+1 D76 for 10mins.

If I change the dilution to 1+3, do I simply have to double the time?

Well if you were not aware, Arista Premium 400 is re-branded Tri-X and so according to the massive development chart, http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=Tri-X+400&Developer=D-76&mdc=Search&TempUnits=C, yes. But keep in mind that the massive development chart is only a starting point...

To everyone else, thanks!

 

[bonatto]

I don't know about the time, but be aware that D-76 must have 8 ounces of the stock solution in the final diluted solution for each roll of film. So, a single roll has to be developed by itself in a 32 ounce tank if you use the 1+3 dilution. D-76 is not a strong developer, and doesn't take heavy dilution well. If you develop at 1+3 in a smaller tank, you'll get underdeveloped film.

Hmm, I'm currently using D76 1+1, 20oz total for two rolls with good results.....any more info on this?

 

[mfogiel]

I think, the best idea, is to do a test for yourself. I did this, for example, with Tri X in D76 a long tiome ago, and I saw, that it was not worth the while, as at 1+3 the tonality started looking worse, without any appreciable positive effect of other kind. However, this can depend on the developer. Generally, the manufacturer will tend to give you a slightly TOO concentrated "normal" dilution, for the sake of making you spend more, and perhaps control the grain better. I have normally found, that developing at TWICE the basic dilution (D76 1+1, Rodinal 1+50, HC110 1+50, DD-X 1+8, etc, gives you the optimal compromise.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Hmm, I'm currently using D76 1+1, 20oz total for two rolls with good results.....any more info on this?

Kodak Publication J-78 (D-76 Developer):

Don’t reuse or replenish the diluted solution. You can develop one 135-3 roll (80 square inches) in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in 946 mL (one quart) of diluted developer. If you process one
135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two 135-36 rolls in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the development time by 10 percent

Kodak says you need to increase developing time just 10 percent if you don't heed the recommendation to develop one roll in a two roll tank. That's not a lot of difference, but keep in mind that this is an average. If you shot a whole roll of very light colored things, the developer would exhaust faster than with an average subject. That's why I follow the recommendation to have 8 ounces of stock in my diluted D-76.

If you're doing the much higher 1+3 dilution, the problem will be magnified, and Kodak doesn't give any info on how much to compensate for that.

 

[bonatto]

Very interesting, Chris, thank you and all others for the input. I'll stick with my standard dilution for now, the increased dilution requiring a larger tank/overall soup volume makes total sense.

 

[charjohncarter]

Kodak Publication J-78 (D-76 Developer):



Kodak says you need to increase developing time just 10 percent if you don't heed the recommendation to develop one roll in a two roll tank. That's not a lot of difference, but keep in mind that this is an average. If you shot a whole roll of very light colored things, the developer would exhaust faster than with an average subject. That's why I follow the recommendation to have 8 ounces of stock in my diluted D-76.

If you're doing the much higher 1+3 dilution, the problem will be magnified, and Kodak doesn't give any info on how much to compensate for that.

This is important to maybe not everyone, but to us that try to be as exact as we can for consistency, it is.

Besides, when you start to push things, as Winston Churchill said, the 'dangerous ifs accumulate.'

And as Chris has said, 'developer is cheap.' I spend more on fixer than I do on developer.

 

[ChrisN]

Interesting this. I regularly develop single rolls of TRI-X 400 film, exposed at EI 250, in a small tank with 300ml of ID-11 1+3. That's with 75ml (2.54 fluid ounces) of stock developer. There's no sign of developer exhaustion, even in scenes with larger areas of bright tones. I develop for 20m with constant agitation (rotating drum, 30rpm, reversing every 10s). 25m gives a noticeably more dense negative, which tells me there's active developer available even after 20m.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Interesting this. I regularly develop single rolls of TRI-X 400 film, exposed at EI 250, in a small tank with 300ml of ID-11 1+3. That's with 75ml (2.54 fluid ounces). There's no sign of developer exhaustion, even in scenes with larger areas of bright tones. I develop for 20m with constant agitation (rotating drum, 30rpm, reversing every 10s). 25m gives a noticeably more dense negative, which tells me there's active developer available even after 20m.. . . ]

Dear Chris,

Your experience accords with mine; with common sense; and with simple chemistry. As one of Ilford's technical experts said to me many years ago, "You need about a tablespoon of developer to develop a film. The rest is there to wet the film quickly and evenly." He also pointed out that a peel-apart Polaroid uses about a teaspoon full of developer.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Photo_Smith]

Developer dilution normally just means the rate of development is slowed because the developing agents are dispersed but there are some caveats.

Various developing agents will react differently depending on the ability to maintain their p.h. important for maintaing diffusion rates at the grain interface, especially in the highlights.
Those diffusion rates, the induction period and the amount of reduction initiation chemicals (normally sodium sulphite) can have effects on speed and overall appearance of grain in certain developers.

For instance developers like D76/ID11 rely on those chemicals to reduce induction period times; they dissolve grain and allow the agent to get at the interstitial (interior) image so that silver reduction takes place, diluting past recommended levels will increase the granularity, and lower the effective speed of films in such developers.
Some people who dilute developing agents add sulphite at 10g/L to reduce this effect, maintain short induction times when 'thinning' the developer agents (I wouldn't bother)
Sulphites are also preservatives, which crucially slows aerial oxidation–a very important feature in MQ and PQ type agents.
Not all developers rely on those chemicals to lower induction periods, colour developers rely on higher p.h as does Rodinal so are less affected.

So the answer is depends 🙂 Most chemists give a minimum amount of developer needed or maximum dilutions with each developer agent; most of these are based upon 120 years of testing those agents and those tests can be relied upon.