Brennotdan
Established
related question: Does "mint" refer to the mechanics/functionality of a camera, or purely to the cleanliness of the camera?
I see "mint" as an item in perfect cosmetic AND working condition. After some recent purchases, I realize that sellers are only refering to cosmetic condition.
I see "mint" as an item in perfect cosmetic AND working condition. After some recent purchases, I realize that sellers are only refering to cosmetic condition.
kuzano
Veteran
I'm going with this one.....
I'm going with this one.....
To me the statement means that whatever speed the shutter is cocked on, when you press the trigger, the shutter opens and closes. The accuracy is not guaranteed, but the fact that the shutter should at least open and close for every speed it is set at is implied. It might take 5 seconds to open and close when it is set for 1/30th of a second, but at least that should happen, the same as if it is set for 1 second and shoots at 1/500th instead.
To me, when the seller says the shutter is firing at all speeds, the following is also implied....."But, not accurately". Now I base this particularly on sellers who appear to know cameras, because they should know that accurate shutter speeds are a concern to buyers, and should address the issue.
When I sell a camera I generally say that the "shutter seems relatively correct at 1 second and progressively gets faster at faster shutter speeds. This is not a guarantee of accuracy".
Most shutters that get sticky over time hang (do not complete the operation) at low speeds like 1 and 1/2 second. Operation generally completes as you set the shutter faster. A shutter that does not complete a shutter operation at 1/200th or 1/500th are severely in need of a complete disassembly and overhaul.
If you are saying the shutter does not open and close at all, at any speed, the seller is way out of line. How many transactions, and what kind of feedback did this seller have, and does he do cameras a lot.
I'm going with this one.....
rtphotos said:In my opinion, "Firing at all speeds" means that the shutter (curtain or blades, etc.) opens and closes after pressing the shutter button, AND that this occurs at all of the camera's shutter speed settings.
Agree that the shutter speeds are not expected to be dead-on accurate, but sounds like you are saying that the shutter doesn't even fire, regardless of speed setting? If so, seller is WRONG. Item is not as described.
I'd point this out and politely and firmly ask him for a discount/partial refund, or option to return item for a TOTAL refund including return postage as the camera was improperly described.
This is besides the point, but what is a "camera professional" anyway?Camera re-seller, appraiser, repairer? He sure sells a lot of non-photography stuff - that and the poor photos would raise warning flags for me.
After some similar bad experiences on ebay, I am leaning towards buying cameras and lenses only from reputable dealers, even if I have to pay a little more. Less grief, life is too short.
good luck! You have my sympathies!
rt
To me the statement means that whatever speed the shutter is cocked on, when you press the trigger, the shutter opens and closes. The accuracy is not guaranteed, but the fact that the shutter should at least open and close for every speed it is set at is implied. It might take 5 seconds to open and close when it is set for 1/30th of a second, but at least that should happen, the same as if it is set for 1 second and shoots at 1/500th instead.
To me, when the seller says the shutter is firing at all speeds, the following is also implied....."But, not accurately". Now I base this particularly on sellers who appear to know cameras, because they should know that accurate shutter speeds are a concern to buyers, and should address the issue.
When I sell a camera I generally say that the "shutter seems relatively correct at 1 second and progressively gets faster at faster shutter speeds. This is not a guarantee of accuracy".
Most shutters that get sticky over time hang (do not complete the operation) at low speeds like 1 and 1/2 second. Operation generally completes as you set the shutter faster. A shutter that does not complete a shutter operation at 1/200th or 1/500th are severely in need of a complete disassembly and overhaul.
If you are saying the shutter does not open and close at all, at any speed, the seller is way out of line. How many transactions, and what kind of feedback did this seller have, and does he do cameras a lot.
burninfilm
Well-known
Let's see here. We have a seller who claims a camera to be in mint condition, yet includes a preface that descriptions are determined by a visual inspection. However, they do state that shutter is firing at all speeds. Quite honestly, this literally means that the shutter is only firing... even if not accurately. I believe that discussing the interpretations of "firing at all speeds" is rather ridiculous. C'mon, we know what that phrase implies. It means that the shutter appears to be "releasing" at different speed settings. NOTHING MORE. The seller also states that the meter responds to light. Are we to assume that the meter is completely accurate? I mean, it seems that most of the previous contributors believe "firing at all speeds" should mean the shutter is working 100% correctly. So, shouldn't "meter responds to light" signify that the meter works 100% accurately? Remember, the seller ALSO stated that the camera may need adjustment. Let's face it, this camera was described perfectly fine. It DOES need adjustment. It WAS sold "as-is".
This is the downside to auction sites. Items can be described as working, but if the phrase "as-is" is thrown into the mix, you will be stuck with the camera (unless the seller is kind and generous). I purchased several cameras stated to be 100% functional off of Ebay and even photography forums, and have been seriously disappointed with the outcome. On the other hand, I've had several fantastic deals as well. One should assume all cameras sold on auction sites will need serviced/repaired if sold "as-is"... despite what might be stated in the description. Decent cameras from decent sellers will be sold with a money-back guarantee. If the seller can't stand behind a description of "mint" and "firing at all speeds" by selling it as-is, why should the buyer assume the camera is accurately described?
So, what should you do? In the future, only assume a camera is working if the seller will allow a money-back guarantee. Besides, it makes everything easier if there is an issue with the camera. Right now, you could try to get your money back if the shutter is not opening at all. However, unless the seller is feeling guilty, you'll likely fail in this quest. So, leave a negative, and assume that you'll get a negative in reply. If you sell lots of items on Ebay, have a separate account for selling, and another for buying. This way, you can leave honest feedback without holding back any punches, yet still have a good feedback if you ever decide to sell something. Who knows, maybe this is against Ebay rules. However, if Ebay isn't going to look out for its users, then they'll have to look out for themselves.
Remember, auction sites like Ebay are great places for great deals, but it's also a great place for sellers to list defective merchandise with vague descriptions. Also, its a great place for people to list items that they aren't familiar with (believe it or not, but some people don't know everything there is to know about photography and cameras!). Some insufficient descriptions are honest mistakes, some might be the result of glossing over defects with "mint" and "as-is" in the same description. It's up to the buyer to figure out which auctions to avoid, and which to consider. Knowing what to look for will protect the buyer more than any Paypal or Ebay protection policy could ever pretend to do.
This is the downside to auction sites. Items can be described as working, but if the phrase "as-is" is thrown into the mix, you will be stuck with the camera (unless the seller is kind and generous). I purchased several cameras stated to be 100% functional off of Ebay and even photography forums, and have been seriously disappointed with the outcome. On the other hand, I've had several fantastic deals as well. One should assume all cameras sold on auction sites will need serviced/repaired if sold "as-is"... despite what might be stated in the description. Decent cameras from decent sellers will be sold with a money-back guarantee. If the seller can't stand behind a description of "mint" and "firing at all speeds" by selling it as-is, why should the buyer assume the camera is accurately described?
So, what should you do? In the future, only assume a camera is working if the seller will allow a money-back guarantee. Besides, it makes everything easier if there is an issue with the camera. Right now, you could try to get your money back if the shutter is not opening at all. However, unless the seller is feeling guilty, you'll likely fail in this quest. So, leave a negative, and assume that you'll get a negative in reply. If you sell lots of items on Ebay, have a separate account for selling, and another for buying. This way, you can leave honest feedback without holding back any punches, yet still have a good feedback if you ever decide to sell something. Who knows, maybe this is against Ebay rules. However, if Ebay isn't going to look out for its users, then they'll have to look out for themselves.
Remember, auction sites like Ebay are great places for great deals, but it's also a great place for sellers to list defective merchandise with vague descriptions. Also, its a great place for people to list items that they aren't familiar with (believe it or not, but some people don't know everything there is to know about photography and cameras!). Some insufficient descriptions are honest mistakes, some might be the result of glossing over defects with "mint" and "as-is" in the same description. It's up to the buyer to figure out which auctions to avoid, and which to consider. Knowing what to look for will protect the buyer more than any Paypal or Ebay protection policy could ever pretend to do.
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kuzano
Veteran
OK, now this may come across as a bit harsh..
OK, now this may come across as a bit harsh..
And it is not my intent to hurt anyones feelings here, but 98.6 positive feedback is simply not good enough for someone with a lot of transaction.
He has 1.4% negative feedback on over 4000 transactions. That means he has screwed over 60 people since 2002. NOW, double that for the people who got screwed and won't or didn't report negative feedback. Yes, it really happens.
I suspect this guy has misrepresented, or not performed on close to 1 1/2 transactions per month over time. Actually, when you realize how many people don't use the feedback system, the numbers could be worse. In fact a lot of his positive transactions could be buyoffs from other people who were dissatisfied and he negotiated a positive feedback to fix the transaction.
In my ebay classes, I encourage people to stay away from anything but 99.5 and then only if the number of negatives are very low and explainable.
You can go back and look at every one of this guys 60 negatives. They are always on record, and I would bet that you would find his complaints to be similar across the board.
Don't translate the number into how many people he has supposedly satisfied. Translate the numbers into how many people have actually been displeased enough to report the guy. If you had known his failed transactions to be between 60 to 100 people, would you have bid?
There is just too much repeat merchandise on eBay, for the most part, to risk a chance on guys like this.
Sorry for the Rant and hope not to offend. It's all just factual.
OK, now this may come across as a bit harsh..
And it is not my intent to hurt anyones feelings here, but 98.6 positive feedback is simply not good enough for someone with a lot of transaction.
He has 1.4% negative feedback on over 4000 transactions. That means he has screwed over 60 people since 2002. NOW, double that for the people who got screwed and won't or didn't report negative feedback. Yes, it really happens.
I suspect this guy has misrepresented, or not performed on close to 1 1/2 transactions per month over time. Actually, when you realize how many people don't use the feedback system, the numbers could be worse. In fact a lot of his positive transactions could be buyoffs from other people who were dissatisfied and he negotiated a positive feedback to fix the transaction.
In my ebay classes, I encourage people to stay away from anything but 99.5 and then only if the number of negatives are very low and explainable.
You can go back and look at every one of this guys 60 negatives. They are always on record, and I would bet that you would find his complaints to be similar across the board.
Don't translate the number into how many people he has supposedly satisfied. Translate the numbers into how many people have actually been displeased enough to report the guy. If you had known his failed transactions to be between 60 to 100 people, would you have bid?
There is just too much repeat merchandise on eBay, for the most part, to risk a chance on guys like this.
Sorry for the Rant and hope not to offend. It's all just factual.
colyn
ישו משיח
It means the same thing as "mint".......just words to get you to bid....nothing more..
colyn
ישו משיח
Vic said:
The Yashica Lynx 1000 is not a piece of junk..
It is a very good camera that is capable of turning out excellent quality photos in the right hands..
Cale Arthur
---- ------
Indeed. And in the spirit of the holidays, i'll share my new e*ay 'perceived item condition system' (or PICS) with everyone, in the hopes of preventing future misfortunes:Vic said:
"Item is in MINT condition" means: item was assessed by someone who was enjoying an Altoid(tm).
"I can see no visible scratches, fingerprints, or other marks" means: while i was typing this sentence, and not looking at the item, i cannot see any of these problems, all of which are most certainly there.
"I don't know anything about cameras" means: while i'm an honest person in theory, this camera could have 1) been baked into a cake, 2) used as wheel chocks for an semi, 3) provided shelter for a family of stink bugs, 4) something in which someone grew a Geranium, or 5) been fished out of a farm pond.
"Makes a noise when i press the button" means: someone in the next room was swatting a fly at the exact moment i pressed said button.
"As Is": this item will provide less enjoyment and serve less of a purpose than a flat tire and used gum combined.
Hope this helps.. and feel free to add your own!
--c--
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burninfilm
Well-known
Vic said:
Yet, you still add to the discussion?
Myself, I wasn't really addressing the original poster's woes, just the general concept. Ebay is a horrible place to buy items "as-is" if you expect the item to be correctly described. End of story.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
DaveW said:
On eBay, yes, it IS too much to ask. I'd give the guy a negative, and take the inevitable retaliatory negative. But I would state that he is NOT to be trusted.
Edit: I would NEVER buy from someone with 62 negative feedback. You were hosed. Big time.
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Ducky
Well-known
I recently ordered a camera listed as NIB which , in ebayese, means new in box. The listing also stated they took it out of the box only to take a picture of it. I got a used camera with cables missing, photos on the card and a soiled manual. The explaination was that someond had recently given them this used camera but they never used it so, to them, is was still NIB. I got my money back and left feedback.
Some sellers are just plain NUTS.
Some sellers are just plain NUTS.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I think "fires at all Speeds" means that when you press the shutter release, something happens. Like, you hear a noise, and the shutter curtain moves. I hear it as evasive: they didn't exactly say it really works, let alone that it is accurate. But "fires" is a verb, indicating action: so at least something happens. If there is no action, then it doesn't fire.
So turn him in.
So turn him in.
kuzano
Veteran
burninfilm said:
It is NOT against eBay rules to have multiple accounts, and I do so for a couple of reasons. I buy/sell primarily cameras on one. I reserve the other for whenever I sell items for third parties, or buy for other parties.
There are some restrictions against using same credit cards, bank accounts and same passwords on multiple accounts. eBay would also look askance if you were proven to be shilling from one of your accounts to another, just as if they caught you shilling a friends account.
Fire at all speeds means that the shutter works, opens and closes, at all speeds and "typically" means it does not get hung up on the slow-speeds.
On Ebay, from a seller with this poor feedback record, the phrase
"I can see no reason why this camera will not work perfectly"
means that it was in a fire and all of the parts that melted were on the inside, out of the seller's sight.
I'll never fall for that line again.
On Ebay, from a seller with this poor feedback record, the phrase
"I can see no reason why this camera will not work perfectly"
means that it was in a fire and all of the parts that melted were on the inside, out of the seller's sight.
I'll never fall for that line again.
greyhoundman
Well-known
A 1000?
Unless it has had a recent CLA, you should not have counted on the shutter being free. I know what the seller said, typical ebay BS.
But the shutter can be freed up with 30 minutes of light work.
Forget the meter. Snowball's chance in hell that it would be accurate.
Unless it has had a recent CLA, you should not have counted on the shutter being free. I know what the seller said, typical ebay BS.
But the shutter can be freed up with 30 minutes of light work.
Forget the meter. Snowball's chance in hell that it would be accurate.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Here is a site you can use to check out ebay users negative feedback in a more readable form.
http://www.toolhaus.org/
Again, sorry to hear of your problem. Fortunately, you were buying a relatively inexpensive camera, so your tuition in the school of hard knocks was cheap this time.
http://www.toolhaus.org/
Again, sorry to hear of your problem. Fortunately, you were buying a relatively inexpensive camera, so your tuition in the school of hard knocks was cheap this time.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
I'm sorry the OP was (apparently) ripped off, but believe that there's every possibility of recovering the money as there's an (IMO) fairly obvious mis-description (as in: firing at all speeds clearly implies that the shutter opens and closes). I think its unfortunate that this might militate against the OP transacting online again through e-bay.
While I know that e-bay can be a mess, judicious use can deliver great deals. And alternatives (eg. the RFF classifieds) while in some ways safer, offer no formal means of recovering your money.
Personally, I've had nothing but good experiences via e-bay, but am out US$350 through trusting a former member in good standing at RFF (the dreaded Nick). Any forum (including really good ones like the RFF classifieds) can be ripped off by bad players. IMO, all you can really do is try to develop a good sense of who is on the up-and-up and mostly put it down to experience if you get it wrong (as I did with Nick). Formal avenues of recovery should be explored, of course, but I find that spivs tend to either have the formal thing down pat or, alternatively, be so far outside your reach that it ends up not worth chasing them.
So, yes, caution is justified. OTOH, there are so many good things out there (for both buyers and sellers) that it seems wrong to avoid online dealings on the basis of one bad experience.
...Mike
While I know that e-bay can be a mess, judicious use can deliver great deals. And alternatives (eg. the RFF classifieds) while in some ways safer, offer no formal means of recovering your money.
Personally, I've had nothing but good experiences via e-bay, but am out US$350 through trusting a former member in good standing at RFF (the dreaded Nick). Any forum (including really good ones like the RFF classifieds) can be ripped off by bad players. IMO, all you can really do is try to develop a good sense of who is on the up-and-up and mostly put it down to experience if you get it wrong (as I did with Nick). Formal avenues of recovery should be explored, of course, but I find that spivs tend to either have the formal thing down pat or, alternatively, be so far outside your reach that it ends up not worth chasing them.
So, yes, caution is justified. OTOH, there are so many good things out there (for both buyers and sellers) that it seems wrong to avoid online dealings on the basis of one bad experience.
...Mike