What happens to the M9 if Kodak goes out of business?

[dave lackey]

Oh, wait...the M9 is dead!

Film is dead!

Gasp! That means Leica is dead!😛

Seriously, corporate matters such as Kodak and Leica's partnership with Kodak for sensors is a lot more sophisticated than the discussions on this thread and elsewhere seem to realize. To think that Leica is not on top of this is just ... silly.

IMO, I am not worried a bit. I am spending my time PHOTOGRAPHING, it is much more fun than hand-wringing.:angel:

Carry on...

 

[jamato8]

Oh, wait...the M9 is dead!

Film is dead!

Gasp! That means Leica is dead!😛

Seriously, corporate matters such as Kodak and Leica's partnership with Kodak for sensors is a lot more sophisticated than the discussions on this thread and elsewhere seem to realize. To think that Leica is not on top of this is just ... silly.

IMO, I am not worried a bit. I am spending my time PHOTOGRAPHING, it is much more fun than hand-wringing.:angel:

Carry on...

This is a public discourse on the matter and I see no hand wringing but dialogue on the possibilities. As an investment in equipment that I use professionally, I like to know the future, or possible future, so I can plan and I like to keep abreast of things rather than being surprised. It is easy enough to type some here and continue on with work as others have shown here, and you yourself, since you wish to get back out and photograph but you did have the time to do some typing in this thread.

I also have seen great companies go under and while it would seem everything would be factored in, if Kodak had been that sophisticated, they would have been better prepared for the digital age, since it was they who in 1975 started the ball rolling.

 

[ashfaque]

In full agreement with Dave. We can be almost certain that Leica has some form of backup plan. Otherwise, it would be suicidal. Almost all manufacturing firms have this type of backup strategy ready in place, let alone quite traditional and risk averse firm like Leica. These are corporate secrets that probably even some dept heads don't know!

 

[splitimageview]

Dear Jeff,

Yes, but apocalypses are so much more FUN! At least for those who lack imagination...

Cheers,

R.

Indeed. What would we do if there weren't any of these apocalyptic threads. 🙂

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I can still buy a replacement for a KAF-1600. If the CCD goes out in the DCS200, I can put in a new one. It's 18 years old. The scientific market uses Kodak CCD's. If FillFactor sensors are still in production after two hand-offs, I just don't worry about KAF-18500's going out of production.

 

[jamato8]

What else is the sensor that is used in the M9 used in?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

That particular sensor is only used in the M9, made with offset microlenses. I believe it is part of Leica's deal with Kodak for the KAF-10500 and KAF-18500. They come off the same line as the rest of the KAF and KAI series of sensors.

 

[kuzano]

Not sure what you are asking....

Not sure what you are asking....

What else is the sensor that is used in the M9 used in?

I can't answer with respect to specific sensor ID numbers, but Olympus used Kodak sensors in their 4/3 DSLRs before (and during) their switch to Panasonic sensors. The E-1 professional DSLR was a 5MP Kodak, the E300 and E500 were both 8Mp Kodak sensors, and finally the E400, not sold in the US, used a 10Mp Kodak sensor.

Now, I've used most of the DSLR and PEN cameras that are using the Panasonic 4/3 sensor. (There really isn't a MICRO 4/3 sensor, as the sensor in the micro 4/3 mount PEN cameras, is the same sensor as standard 4/3. It's the mount and the removal of the mirror box that differs). Anyway, I've use all the Kodak variations in Olympus and most of the Panasonic sensored 4/3 and the PENS.

In all cases, I have gone back to the Kodak sensored Oly's, and currently shoot the 10Mp E400, it being the highest Mp Kodak used by Olympus.

The reason... the rendering of color of the Kodak sensor. Oly made a huge mistake, or just couldn't work a deal, in leaving Kodak. They have only been able to relieve that error somewhat by their improvements in the processing engine software.

But, all in all, I think it is easy for the camera manufacturers to make these odd economic decisions because the majority of the consumer market place is neither discriminating nor demanding.

Unfortunately professionals no longer drive the market place... uninformed consumers do.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Here's the home page for the Kodak Image Sensors group.

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Image_Sensor_Solutions/Products/Products.htm

The KAF-18500 is not listed, must be Leica exclusive.

The KAF-1603 is there. Drop in replacement for the sensor in my 18 year old camera.

 

[Nikon Bob]

Oh, wait...the M9 is dead!

Film is dead!

Gasp! That means Leica is dead!😛

Seriously, corporate matters such as Kodak and Leica's partnership with Kodak for sensors is a lot more sophisticated than the discussions on this thread and elsewhere seem to realize. To think that Leica is not on top of this is just ... silly.

IMO, I am not worried a bit. I am spending my time PHOTOGRAPHING, it is much more fun than hand-wringing.:angel:

Carry on...

Normally I would tend to have agreed with you on this. After seeing what silliness big business, banks and others have been up to in the last few years I am a bit less inclined and tend to be a bit more skeptical. Whatever happens to Kodak will take a fairly long time to shake out. No sense to panic now, just wait and see what will happen and deal with it then. Nobody here knows with any certainty what exactly situation is/will be in the future but the current status quo is likely to change.

Bob

 

[maddoc]

Indeed. What would we do if there weren't any of these apocalyptic threads. 🙂

... we would ... going out and take some photos ! 😀😉

 

[jamato8]

Actually there is no apocalyptic or the sky is falling thread here. The original question is quite simple. Some have answers and others questions. Kodak is having problems so, if no one picked up the sensor line, "if" being the operative word and "if" Kodak went out of business then what else would or could suffice for the sensor. It isn't a knee jerk response to the current situation of Kodak but a question as to possibilities.

 

[Nikon Bob]

Actually there is no apocalyptic or the sky is falling thread here. The original question is quite simple. Some have answers and others questions. Kodak is having problems so, if no one picked up the sensor line, "if" being the operative word and "if" Kodak went out of business then what else would or could suffice for the sensor. It isn't a knee jerk response to the current situation of Kodak but a question as to possibilities.

Totally reasonable to have some concern re: the sensor from Kodak and certainly nothing apocalyptic about it. Nobody at this point can predict with any certainty which one of several outcomes it will eventually be. There is no way of getting ahead of the curve in these things and no reliable course of action you can take now to minimize whatever the future effect will be on the M9 and it's owners.

Bob

 

[splitimageview]

If the CCD used in the M9 has customers to buy it and it generates profits, it will continue to be manufactured even if it doesn't have the Kodak name on it. The same goes for any Kodak product...

 

[maddoc]

That particular sensor is only used in the M9, made with offset microlenses. I believe it is part of Leica's deal with Kodak for the KAF-10500 and KAF-18500. They come off the same line as the rest of the KAF and KAI series of sensors.

Since the microlenses are a special requirement from Leica, is the sensor used in the M8, M8.2, M9 a microlens modified standard chip or a total different design with a special layout for adapton for the microlenses ?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

It's a different chip, but is within the same family. The family includes chips with different pixel size and count. Note that some of the other detectors are available in Monochrome.

 

[Shade]

I think if Kodak does go out of business in whatever future, Leica would probably provide a few options.

1. Replace the sensor with a different manufacturer's sensor at a cost (obviously your warranty is long gone by then).

2. Offer a trade-in for a newer camera of whatever M-xx is available at that time.

3. Repair the sensor under a different service manufacturer if possible.

The last is the least likely, but well, we're talking about *what-if*.

 

[rxmd]

I think if Kodak does go out of business in whatever future, Leica would probably provide a few options.

1. Replace the sensor with a different manufacturer's sensor at a cost (obviously your warranty is long gone by then).

2. Offer a trade-in for a newer camera of whatever M-xx is available at that time.

3. Repair the sensor under a different service manufacturer if possible.

The last is the least likely, but well, we're talking about *what-if*.

You can't just replace a sensor by one from a different manufacturer. You have to redesign the electronics.

And you don't replace a sensor in a camera by soldering it off the board and soldering in a different sensor. Instead, you have an inventory of sensor assemblies, and when that is used up you either order a few hundred or thousand new sensor assemblies, or you have a problem.

When Leica Solms doesn't have a spare part anymore, they usually stop servicing the respective product. They do this with lenses and with mechanical cameras, and it won't be any different with the M9. When there are no more sensors from Kodak, or when it becomes uneconomical to order replacement sensor assemblies, they will stop servicing M9s. You'll be left with a brick, same as with any other manufacturer. If anything, they will offer to sell you an M10 or whatever is current instead and possibly give you a little discount.

 

[Jamie123]

I guess even if Kodak stays in business it doesn't mean that they'll be producing the M9 chip indefinitely.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Sorry, I've heard of Agfa, but not of Ferrania. My point is that one of the top two companies for color and b&w photographic film is going under and people are more interested in what will happen to the digital sensors they produce.

Hey, it's a Leica thread, and shame on them for Kodak going under. Because the Leica M9 is the only digital camera in the world with a Kodak sensor, and it'll be impossible (impossible, I tells ya!) that Leica could possibly engage a different sensor manufacturer to supply to them in the future. It's The End™!