What impact could the current full frame frenzy have on micro four thirds?

dasuess said:
Smaller is not always better in my book. The M4/3 cameras are about as small as I'd want to get with my hands. And I would be tempted to go with a FF, if the camera ergonomics were right, if a decent line of lenses were available, and if the cost were affordable by the average joe who is soon to be retired.
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I quite agree, but I think that's where the differentiation will come from for m43 to compete with APS-C and now full frame compact cameras.
 
zuiko85 said:
This whole thing is interesting to me. Here we have a holdout from the film era, a 24X36mm rectangle. And this has affected (infected?) the thinking of both hobbyist and professional for more than a decade now.

Perhaps this came about because the earliest pro digital cameras were little more than converted film Nikons with a digital back, albeit with a much smaller than FF sensor. That and a mountain of legacy film lenses designed to cover a 46mm image circle. I know that's true for myself, sitting there with a bag full of Zuiko OM primes and complaining when the E-1 came out 'Why can't Olympus just make me a OM sized FF digital', not then understanding the difficulty and expense of the task. That of course was a bit disingenuous of me since I have always been, and remain still today a fan and user of Olympus half frame cameras.

Now I wish we could get away from the confines of the 24X36mm box. It is based on joining together two cine-frames on 35mm double perf movie film almost a hundred years ago by our friend Herr Barnack and is not some devine mandate. Personally I think a square sensor would make more sense and take advantage of more of a lens image circle. About 30X30mm would seem to fit inside most FF bodies and as an added bonus you would not have to design the body to accommodate a vertical grip in portrait orientation.

As to the survival of 4:3? Couldn't really speculate, the market is a weird thing and many buy more on emotion than need.
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You have said exactly how I feel. The idea that a a digital camera must have a sensor the size of a 35mm film negative to be any good is effectively to keep clinging to an anachronism.There is no reason, with the progress in digital technology, why a 4/3 or MFT sensor cannot produce an image with the same resolution,etc,etc, as a "full frame" sensor.

I think the insistence on "full frame" is an appeal to emotion rather than logic. It's what people are used to from all those years of 35mm film cameras, so they feel a smaller format will not be "as good."

If people had thought this way 90 years ago, they would have insisted that only a "full-frame" (i.e. 4X5) camera was any good, and that the "MFT" camera of its time--the Leica-- was a dead end.

And yeah, there's room for more than one kind of format, as film showed us, from 35mm to "medium format," up through 4X5, etc. Different strokes for different folks. And look how the 35mm format came to be adopted by "serious photographers". (Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion about 35mm being "full frame")

(Must confess to bias here , as I am heavily invested in both 4/3 and MFT....)
 
PKR said:
If there is a format to be dropped, I would think it would be APS-C. FF has many advantages for wide angle lens users, beyond the use of legacy lenses. And, M43 has a huge advantage of a world-lens mount, with many players already making lenses for cameras they don't make. As sensors improve, M43 will approach a quality that will surpass the current ASP-C best. How much resolution do we need in a small format? Better exposure range and lower noise are bigger issues to my thinking. So, maybe APS-C is the format - if any, that might be dropped.
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+1
Plus lets not forget that most of the people who are selling APS-C camera have a long history with the traditional 35mm/FF format while most of the people selling Micro 4/3 has little or no history with 35mm/FF. So while going 100% FF for the former just means dropping a system, going FF for the later mean both dropping a system and introducing a whole new system.
 
I think that the question is not 'what happens if FF becomes the standard', but rather 'what is FF'? Who's to say that digital must be handicapped by film's format sizes?

What I'd rather know is who will be the first to break through the 'full-frame' barrier and launch a larger than 35mm sensor. There's really no reason not to unless you're tied to legacy glass (I'm looking at you Leica)...
 
Hmm, what impact has it let on me?

The ability to pick up a GX1 with a kit lens, and a 20mm f1.7 for more than a fair price. Less than an OM-D body actually.

Love this little thing, fast autofocus, all the buttons, controls, touch screen! nice build quality, wow. What little gem, and it'll do fairly good at higher ISO's.


Panasonic Lumix GX1 by lamlux.net, on Flickr

RX-100 is nice, but sensor size is questionable for the cost to me..
and the RX-1 is just too expensive.

This seemed like a good time to join in.
 
"Handicapped by film's standards" says the alchemist. What is special about FF? Continuity a 100 year old standard that established certain conventions, especially in regard to lenses--FOVs and DOF. What makes FF great? Continuity with the lenses of the past. The capacity to use old film lenses and the possibility of continuing lens making along those lines. This is why FF will increase in popularity and force APS-C out. M43 by contrast will continue: half-frame having certain advantages in size. I think m43 has come far and is here to stay.
 
Keith said:
...there must be other manufacturers paying attention to the current groundswell in interest in full frame.
...
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It would be pure ignorance for any manufacture to fail to pay attention to market trends, whether they be mirrorless systems or sensor sizes. Its safe to say that all of the major and minor brands are paying serious attention to both and are considering products that they might develop. Keep in mind that "considering developing a product" is quite different than actually doing it. Most of what they consider doing never sees the light of day.

As to the impact of the "current full frame frenzy" on m43, I feel there will be little direct impact. The current frenzy involves $2000USD+ models, a price class that doesn't compete directly with m43. So future FF Frenzy may have impact if and when its price floats down to what is currently ~$1000USD, roughly 1/2 to 1/4 of current pricing.

One thing frequently ignored in size comparisons, particularily by the FF advocates, is that the body size in only a fraction of the true size of a complete camera and a small fraction of a complete multi-lens outfit. While it's true that some of the newer FF bodies are virtually the same size as the common APS-c bodies the cameras as a whole, when considered with the lens, are noticably larger. When a multi-lens outfit is compared, the size difference is still large.
 
urban_alchemist said:
I think that the question is not 'what happens if FF becomes the standard', but rather 'what is FF'? Who's to say that digital must be handicapped by film's format sizes?

What I'd rather know is who will be the first to break through the 'full-frame' barrier and launch a larger than 35mm sensor. There's really no reason not to unless you're tied to legacy glass (I'm looking at you Leica)...
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Why would being tied to legacy glass prevent someone from launching a larger then 35mm sensor? After all Pentax, Hassalblad, PhaseOne, ext all currently have systems out that use sensors that are larger then 35mm.
 
traveler_101 said:
This is why FF will increase in popularity and force APS-C out. M43 by contrast will continue: half-frame having certain advantages in size. I think m43 has come far and is here to stay.
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APS-C and M43 play in the same price league, while FF is (and will continue to be) in quite another. Whatever will be going on will not be determined by FF. And it will not be determined by size, but by marketing.

And it won't be determined in our market either - first-time up-market camera buyers in China, India and other emerging Asian markets are the driving force right now...
 
Keith said:
It would seem it's only a matter of time before full frame sensors become par for the course in mirrorless cameras. Sony have done it, Fuji are talking about it and there must be other manufacturers paying attention to the current groundswell in interest in full frame.
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Fixed-lens cameras don't count, so Sony hasn't really done it yet. I don't think we'll see a FF interchangeable lens mirrorless AF camera particularly soon.
Aside from the lens/body size issues that others have mentioned, full frame cameras are still $2000 and up for just a body while you can get current m43 cameras for a quarter of that price.
 
sevo said:
APS-C and M43 play in the same price league, while FF is (and will continue to be) in quite another. Whatever will be going on will not be determined by FF. And it will not be determined by size, but by marketing.

And it won't be determined in our market either - first-time up-market camera buyers in China, India and other emerging Asian markets are the driving force right now...
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These are today's dime-store assumptions. Asians so far have not been setting standards but following them. If they really become leaders then the whole game changes in a completely unpredictable way. FF may well emerge to reset standards; maybe not, ok, but it very easy to sit there and spout this globalized capitalist nonsense that certain people seem to favor.
 
Smart phones take a lot of photographs right now. Many of these photographs have a lifetime of hours to days. Numerous Apps automatically sync theses photos someplace else and hardly any of the synced photos get printed. This means content is greatly more important than quality. It also means the tiny sensor P&S cameras have lost a huge amount of market share and high end P&S cameras could be an endangered species.

In the future the m4/3 market will be competing with sub-compact APS-C cameras for people who become frustrated with smart phone photography. This could be a significant segment of consumers. But the m4/3 vendors have to market to these people so they don't run out and pick up a $300 P&S camera instead. The existing m4/3 user base will likely remain constant. Many people find the platform fills their needs.

The current DSLR user base is huge. The question is: will APS-C and 24x36 frame mirrorless cameras end up in the hands of current DSLR owners. I believe Nikon and Canon are making a huge mistake by not entering the APS-C mirrorless market early in the game. The ability for the typical DSLR owner to use their existing lenses on a compact body could sell a lot of new cameras. There would be lens sales too as consumers realized life would be easier by replacing their large heavy kit DSLR lenses.

So I predict m4/3 sales will decline, but there will be enough profit for Panasonic and Olympus to stay in that segment. APS-C mirrorless will grow. Sony will lead the way. Canon and Nikon will make smaller DSLRs, but their internal politics and DSLR centric bureaucracies can't adapt in time.

Only serious photographers who actively take photographs for traditional purposes will upgrade to 24x36 mm compact mirrorless cameras. Re-using existing lenses is highly relevant. Does anyone know whn the F mount patent expires?

Many photographers will be content to stay with APS-C lenses... but APS-C compact vendors have to make stellar wide-angle-of view lenses. They already make excellent fast lenses.
 
Actually, it appears the quote from Fuji has been overblown by an enthusiastic editor. The headline doesn't really match the interview.

Japanese don't give a direct 'no' answer. This doesn't mean the answer is 'yes.' 🙂 They didn't rule out a full frame, but the article doesn't exactly rule it 'in', either.

"However, Kawahara questioned who would buy such a camera, given the high price Fuji would need to charge for a model that also lacks mass-market appeal."

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...-investigates-full-frame-system-camera-sensor
 
I am not sure if we can say whether or not m4/3 will survive. But i think it is safe to say that mirrorless interchangeable will survive. Whether the sensor is going to be m4/3, APS-C or even "full frame", that depends on what the "package" offering is. So far, the only interchangeable "full frame" camera that is not huge is Leica. I would not be surprised if more will come.

My guess is the following can live along:
1. Enthusiast compact (whether part of smartphone or camera) including fixed FL lens cameras (e.g. Fuji X100, Sony RX1)
2. Mirrorless of some sort
3. DLSR (too many lens in the circulation to die anytime soon)
4. Medium format that is significantly larger than "FF" (e.g. 6cm wide)
 
dasuess said:
Just went over there and joined the forum. Looking forward to more m4/3 stuff.
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It's a very civil place with good moderation and a generally nice bunch of people.

Something did happen the other day that puzzled me though. I logged on in the morning and I always go straight to the page that displays all the active threads/discussions. Someone had started a thread in the general discussion news etc forum about the interview with the Fuji rep who commented about the possibility of Fuji going full frame in light of the Sony release. When I checked later in the day that thread had vanished from the main page and had been consigned to another forum that doesn't have a place on that active disussion page ... there is a separate forum named 'other sytems' that lives in a forums list dungeon similar to our 'film V digital' and 'off topic' threads. Consequently the activity in these threads dies very quickly because they are less than obvious when browsing the forum. I can see the point in having a separate forum for 'other systems' but I think it's a little head in the sand to conceal it from mainstream activity.

That really suprised me as I hadn't noticed it before ... maybe it's a new thing?
 
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