burninfilm
Well-known
Hello. I am very interested in hearing your explanation of what makes the “Skinner Canon IV-1950" cameras such an important part of Canon history. You stated in an article that this series of cameras was the first to be "designated particularly for the western markeplace" (Shutterbug, February 2006, http://www.shutterbug.net/equipmentreviews/35mm_cameras/0206classic/index1.html). Furthermore, you go on to state in the same article that previous sales of Canon cameras were mainly conducted through the PX system. However, in sources from 1950 and 1951, one can find references from the Skinner company to imported IIB cameras before the introduction of the “Skinner Canon IV-1950", showing that there likely was a large amount of Canon cameras sold through an official western distributor before the 1951 introduction of the Canon IIC (the name Skinner applied at first to early Canon IV type cameras).
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for your time.
harry01562
Registered semi-lurker
An interesting question, and I'm also waiting to read the answers. Part of the interest in this camera, of course, is the great scarcity, with ASIR only 50 in existence originally. I would guess that almost any camera that had such a small quantity produced would be collectible, and probably pricey. The exception, of course, is the "limited" editions produced to be seen on shelves or under glass. Many of those are just a waste of a good instrument, that will never perform the function for which it was designed.
Anything pertaining to the Skinner Co. and their sales efforts for Canon would be of interest. I've only seen their ads, but wonder if they produced brochures or catalogs. Anyone got such a thing??
Harry
Anything pertaining to the Skinner Co. and their sales efforts for Canon would be of interest. I've only seen their ads, but wonder if they produced brochures or catalogs. Anyone got such a thing??
Harry
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
The 1950 was a trial version of the later IV series Canons.
it was first to have, flash sync and the rail, 1/1000 shutter speed and T,shutter split at 1/25 of a sec., first to take on a rapid winder.
it was still engraved with LTD not INC after the Canon name.
it was first to have, flash sync and the rail, 1/1000 shutter speed and T,shutter split at 1/25 of a sec., first to take on a rapid winder.
it was still engraved with LTD not INC after the Canon name.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Speaking of which, a fellow on another forum just posted that he realized the old Canon he's had and used since the late '60s is one of these! I know he'd like to contact Peter to find out more information (and get a sense of how much he should insure it for!).
nodyad
Member
I am that feller. I just ran to check the "Ltd" vs "Inc." on the top, and indeed it has the "Ltd" engraving. Last night I dropped a note to Peter at his SongofSnow contact address to thank him for the article that helped me finally get much closer to an identification on this camera. Below are some pix on Photobucket in case anyone is interested in helping to confirm the details--I'm still not quite willing to let myself believe what I'm seeing, sort of an "am I really a lotto winner?" state of mind.KoNickon said:
Likely many of those cameras still exist, but are undiscovered or (shudder) disassembled for parts. I had no idea that this one could have been unique, for example.
(The removeable take-up spool, by the way, lacks the retractable grip like the one in my later IVSB2, in case that matters.)
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pdek
"Dekkam" as was
Canon 1950 importance/history
Canon 1950 importance/history
Thanks to all of you who have so far contributed to this thread. I'll try to catch up!
First, the camera thought to be a Canon 1950 IS a Canon 1950. I've already been in touch with the owner on that one.
Second, as stated (maybe not clearly enough?) in my article in Shutterbug last year, my chapter on the 1950s in the "Canon RF Cameras" book has become outdated; that article in Shutterbug was intended to update the chapter. It turns out that Canon 1950s were not all Canon IV types; there were also some Canon III types made withing that 200-camera serial range. And since only about 50 of the Canon IV-types were imported to the US through Skinner, the remaining 150 examples of the 1950 cameras don't have the reference on the baseplate about being serviced in San Francisco. Thus the "Skinner Camera" is simply one subset of the Canon 1950s; the others are, so to speak, the "Non-Skinner 1950 Model IV" and the "1950 Model III".
Sometime near the end of 1950 the Canon IIB construction was changed. The most obvious sign of this, as my book explains, was the new position of the top cover retaining screw below the accessory shoe: centered now instead of offset. But since a lot of IIB internal parts hadn't yet been used up, Canon continued to produce the new form of IIB simultaneously with the more "modern" IIC for at least another year. It was these late IIB versions that Skinner sold during the years beginning in 1950: he DEFINITELY was not an official Canon outlet before 1950, and didn't advertise Canons till the 1950 Model IV was in his hands. So far as I can tell, in fact, there exist more of the late IIBs than the IICs.
The 1950 models were IMPORTANT because they introduced a new shutter mechanism, an improved rangefinder mechanism, and other improvements. The take-up spool with extendable tip came a year or so later. But all the Canons produced until 1955-56 were essentially one or another version or slight improvement of the Models III and IV, whose prototypes are to be found within that batch of serials between 50,000 and 52,000. The first major change afterward was the further-improved shutter found in the "-2" models of 1955-56.
I hope all this helps!
Peter
**********
Canon 1950 importance/history
Thanks to all of you who have so far contributed to this thread. I'll try to catch up!
First, the camera thought to be a Canon 1950 IS a Canon 1950. I've already been in touch with the owner on that one.
Second, as stated (maybe not clearly enough?) in my article in Shutterbug last year, my chapter on the 1950s in the "Canon RF Cameras" book has become outdated; that article in Shutterbug was intended to update the chapter. It turns out that Canon 1950s were not all Canon IV types; there were also some Canon III types made withing that 200-camera serial range. And since only about 50 of the Canon IV-types were imported to the US through Skinner, the remaining 150 examples of the 1950 cameras don't have the reference on the baseplate about being serviced in San Francisco. Thus the "Skinner Camera" is simply one subset of the Canon 1950s; the others are, so to speak, the "Non-Skinner 1950 Model IV" and the "1950 Model III".
Sometime near the end of 1950 the Canon IIB construction was changed. The most obvious sign of this, as my book explains, was the new position of the top cover retaining screw below the accessory shoe: centered now instead of offset. But since a lot of IIB internal parts hadn't yet been used up, Canon continued to produce the new form of IIB simultaneously with the more "modern" IIC for at least another year. It was these late IIB versions that Skinner sold during the years beginning in 1950: he DEFINITELY was not an official Canon outlet before 1950, and didn't advertise Canons till the 1950 Model IV was in his hands. So far as I can tell, in fact, there exist more of the late IIBs than the IICs.
The 1950 models were IMPORTANT because they introduced a new shutter mechanism, an improved rangefinder mechanism, and other improvements. The take-up spool with extendable tip came a year or so later. But all the Canons produced until 1955-56 were essentially one or another version or slight improvement of the Models III and IV, whose prototypes are to be found within that batch of serials between 50,000 and 52,000. The first major change afterward was the further-improved shutter found in the "-2" models of 1955-56.
I hope all this helps!
Peter
**********
burninfilm said:
CanonRFinder
Well-known
HI Peter,
I have on my database the following "1950" camera serial # with 50mm f/1.9 lenses
I know that lenses can be switched around but it is interesting to note that #50074 has a very early 50mm f/1.9 lens attached and #50004 has a very late example. It seems that they were working on #50057, #50160, #50162 and #50163 simultaneously as the lenses attached have serial # close together. Cameras with serial #50069, #50088, #50170 and #50187 it seems they were developing later on as again the lens serial # are close together.
Not sure if you have kept records of the developments of the cameras but it would be interesting to see if there is a line of R&D.
The # in red indicate that these are recorded prototype cameras used in official Canon instuction books or Canon adverts that have appeared in Photo magazines. This means there are only EIGHT known examples.
Regards Peter K
I have on my database the following "1950" camera serial # with 50mm f/1.9 lenses
- #50004 with lens #45765
- #50057 " #25923
- #50065 ?
- #50069 " #38306
- #50074 " #20485
- #50088 " #38401
- #50095 " ?
- #50103 ?
- #50136 ?
- #50160 " #27844
- #50162 " #24933
- #50163 " #24520
- #50170 " #38373
- #50187 " #38221
- #50193 ?
- #50194 ?
- #50201 ?
I know that lenses can be switched around but it is interesting to note that #50074 has a very early 50mm f/1.9 lens attached and #50004 has a very late example. It seems that they were working on #50057, #50160, #50162 and #50163 simultaneously as the lenses attached have serial # close together. Cameras with serial #50069, #50088, #50170 and #50187 it seems they were developing later on as again the lens serial # are close together.
Not sure if you have kept records of the developments of the cameras but it would be interesting to see if there is a line of R&D.
The # in red indicate that these are recorded prototype cameras used in official Canon instuction books or Canon adverts that have appeared in Photo magazines. This means there are only EIGHT known examples.
Regards Peter K
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nodyad
Member
Camera #50069 has the retractable Serenar f:1.9 50mm No. 38306
CanonRFinder
Well-known
Thanks Don, appreciate that.
As per lens order
As per lens order
- #20485 camera #50074
- #24520 " #50163
- #24933 " #50162
- #25923 " #50057
- #27844 ' #50160
- #38221 " #50187
- #38306 " #50069
- #38373 " #50170
- #38401 " #50088
- #45765 " #50004
pdek
"Dekkam" as was
Canon #50004
Canon #50004
About the lens on #50004. It is much later than the others because that camera body was retained by Canon and later modified to make a prototype for the Model IVSB. As my article in Shutterbug last year (Feb. 2006 issue, page114) mentioned, #50004 is unique in being a "double-prototype" body. The lens it now has is presumably the one that was mounted at the time the camera was in the second prototype stage. At that time, the 50/1.9 would actually have been out of date itself, so that instead of mounting a current 50/1.8, the people at Canon likely dug out of the parts bin a left-over semi-matching lens and left it at that.
What with Peter K as well as Peter D contributingto this thread -- and many thanks, Peter K! -- it occurs to me that we'd better use the last initials on our postings here.
Peter D
**********
Canon #50004
About the lens on #50004. It is much later than the others because that camera body was retained by Canon and later modified to make a prototype for the Model IVSB. As my article in Shutterbug last year (Feb. 2006 issue, page114) mentioned, #50004 is unique in being a "double-prototype" body. The lens it now has is presumably the one that was mounted at the time the camera was in the second prototype stage. At that time, the 50/1.9 would actually have been out of date itself, so that instead of mounting a current 50/1.8, the people at Canon likely dug out of the parts bin a left-over semi-matching lens and left it at that.
What with Peter K as well as Peter D contributingto this thread -- and many thanks, Peter K! -- it occurs to me that we'd better use the last initials on our postings here.
Peter D
**********
CanonRFinder said:
CanonRFinder
Well-known
Hi Peter,
I have updated the list of "1950" in the link below but thought I better do a reply instead.
The #50xxx in red indicate recorded prototype cameras between #50001 and #50200 used in official Canon instuction books or Canon adverts that have appeared in US Photo magazines. This means there are only EIGHT known examples.
One of the examples below is in the upcoming auction at
http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?id=94177&acat=94177&_ssl=off
I have updated the list of "1950" in the link below but thought I better do a reply instead.
The #50xxx in red indicate recorded prototype cameras between #50001 and #50200 used in official Canon instuction books or Canon adverts that have appeared in US Photo magazines. This means there are only EIGHT known examples.
One of the examples below is in the upcoming auction at
http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?id=94177&acat=94177&_ssl=off
- #50004 with lens #45765
- #50057 " #25923
- #50065 ?
- #50069 " #38306
- #50074 " #20485
- #50088 " #38401
- #50095 " ?
- #50103 ?
- #50136 ?
- #50160 " #27844
- #50162 " #24933
- #50163 " #24520
- #50170 " #38373
- #50187 " #38221
- #50193 ?
- #50194 ?
- #50201 ?
nodyad
Member
Wouldn't this be "between 50,000 and 50,200" for the 1950 trial series?pdek said:
W
wlewisiii
Guest
CanonRFinder said:
Neat camera. That's a really clean looking Hansa in the same auction too. I am so glad I am too poor to be a serious collector :angel: Slightly more seriously the SII could be fun as a user.
Don, I'm sure that's a simple typo as the correct numerals are simply in a one off wrong position.
William
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Sonnar2
Well-known
"Also included: documentation relating to this camera including rare literature and the original letter of authenticity from Dr. Peter Dechert" - if I had the money to buy it (and not to prefer to buy the Hansa) this would increase my trust in the originality of the camera, and probably my bids as well...
pdek
"Dekkam" as was
Letter of Authenticity
Letter of Authenticity
***
The "letter of authenticity" is somewhat of an overstatement. When the seller bought this camera some years back, it had been modified in ways that hid its original nature: a new slow speed dial with a lock (as in later Canon RFs) had been installed, the synch mechanism had been updated to a later type, and a new eyepiece had replaced the original. What I wrote to him was that he had the essence of a Canon 1950, but that if he really wanted to put it back into its original condition he would have to replace the newer parts with original ones, taking them perhaps from a Canon IV of only slightly later vintage. My understanding is that this is what he has done, except for the eyepiece (which I don't think I had noticed in the photos he sent me at that time). Anyway, I assume the "letter" is the one that referred to the changes necessary; I don't recall ever having sent him one about the results of the work, though that's not impossible. Too long ago!
Since Canon 1950s are rare in any condition, this particular one has to be valued for what it was as well as perhaps being slightly downgraded for what it became before his restoration. It is, in fact, a "restored" Canon 1950.
Peter D
Letter of Authenticity
Sonnar2 said:
***
The "letter of authenticity" is somewhat of an overstatement. When the seller bought this camera some years back, it had been modified in ways that hid its original nature: a new slow speed dial with a lock (as in later Canon RFs) had been installed, the synch mechanism had been updated to a later type, and a new eyepiece had replaced the original. What I wrote to him was that he had the essence of a Canon 1950, but that if he really wanted to put it back into its original condition he would have to replace the newer parts with original ones, taking them perhaps from a Canon IV of only slightly later vintage. My understanding is that this is what he has done, except for the eyepiece (which I don't think I had noticed in the photos he sent me at that time). Anyway, I assume the "letter" is the one that referred to the changes necessary; I don't recall ever having sent him one about the results of the work, though that's not impossible. Too long ago!
Since Canon 1950s are rare in any condition, this particular one has to be valued for what it was as well as perhaps being slightly downgraded for what it became before his restoration. It is, in fact, a "restored" Canon 1950.
Peter D
pdek
"Dekkam" as was
50,200 is right!
50,200 is right!
***
Quite right: between 50,000 and 50,200. Slip of the fingers! Thanks, Peter D
50,200 is right!
nodyad said:
***
Quite right: between 50,000 and 50,200. Slip of the fingers! Thanks, Peter D
nodyad
Member
Ah, the comment about restored parts on that camera explains the shutter well, which has a reeded edge (like a US quarter), not a hashed edge (like the upper speed dial). The eyepiece pictured does appear to be the later type without the inner concentric rims (but frankly, the later version is a great usability enhancement for eyeglass wearers like me!).
canonchromie
Newbie
Don,
First of all, congrats. on your Skinner 1950 (#50069). It is a vary important part of Canon history.
I would just like to comment on your earlier statement about the Skinner 1950 (#50162) that is currently advertised on the Westlicht Auction site. When you say "shutter well" I am assuming that you are referring to the shutter release button and the chrome ring around it. If so, the chrome ring shown on the #50162 is original.
As Peter Dechert stated earlier, the advertised #50162 is a Skinner 1950 BUT it is a partially "restored" Skinner 1950. As you noted, the rear eyepiece is from a later model Canon Rangefinder, most likely the IVSB2. I think that to replace the original eyeoiece would be very difficult, even for the master technician, because the original hole had to be enlarged to fit the current eyepiece.
Many thanks to PD for his contributions to this site. He is truly the master of Canon history.
Ron
First of all, congrats. on your Skinner 1950 (#50069). It is a vary important part of Canon history.
I would just like to comment on your earlier statement about the Skinner 1950 (#50162) that is currently advertised on the Westlicht Auction site. When you say "shutter well" I am assuming that you are referring to the shutter release button and the chrome ring around it. If so, the chrome ring shown on the #50162 is original.
As Peter Dechert stated earlier, the advertised #50162 is a Skinner 1950 BUT it is a partially "restored" Skinner 1950. As you noted, the rear eyepiece is from a later model Canon Rangefinder, most likely the IVSB2. I think that to replace the original eyeoiece would be very difficult, even for the master technician, because the original hole had to be enlarged to fit the current eyepiece.
Many thanks to PD for his contributions to this site. He is truly the master of Canon history.
Ron
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