What is the essential difference?

FrankS said:
This will sound cynical, but IMO, an essential difference between an average photographer and a great one, is marketing.

Not the only difference but one of the differences.
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Only applies to the financial side, either artists or after his/her death the owners. In enough time real merit will be judged :)
 
Again, being cynical, the art world (galleries, agents, collectors) has become motivated solely by profit and the potential for profit. Sorry, I just think it's gone to the dogs.

Could simply be sour grapes, so please just ignore.

;)
 
My experience has led me to disagree with the "you either have it or you don't" line of thinking. It's all about how much of your life you're willing to devote to something. I can't speak to photography directly as I've only been doing it for a few years. In college I studied to be a piano major. I studied daily with an accomplished Steinway artist and attended weekly masterclasses with other pianists which lasted late into the evenings. When I wasn't in class I was practicing or studying. It literally consumed my life, which I learned is what it what it takes to do anything to the highest level. I practiced methodically until I was absolutely sick of the music, then I practiced more. Despite not starting to play until I was a teenager I was good. Really, really scary good. These days I practice half as much and am 80% as good as I was.

If photography becomes your life - if you photograph and study composition every free second of your life in a methodical way, I'd imagine you'll end up a very good photographer. How badly do you want it? That's the essential difference.
 
sreed2006 said:
There are some extremely talented and great photographers on RFF, as well as others who know a great deal about great photographers, and so I feel safe in asking these questions here.

In a Flickr discussion thread, there was an entry by a young lady who wrote something like this, "Oh, I really want to be a great photographer!"

It was heart-rending in a way, because I knew exactly how she felt.

Is there an essential difference between someone who can consistently produce great photographs and someone who is stuck at wanna-be?
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No one produces a great shot every time she clicks. And it takes a lot of practice to get a higher proportion of useable photographs. Great photographs are mostly luck. If you shoot more, you get luckier.

Is there something (or somethings) that can be learned to get over the hump, with consistency?
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Practice. Develop your taste.

Is being great just a gift that if you have you have, and if you don't you don't, and not something that can be learned?
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A little yes and a big no. some people are not very visually oriented. Every one else can learn. you have to do it.

Finally, does the ability wear out? (I ask because it seems to me that many artists who are great in their youth, and even their middle age, quit producing in their later years, a situation into which I am most definitely headed.)
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If you look at the really good artists, the common factor is obsession. They hammered at it. Woke up to do it, went to bed thinking about it, dreamt about it at night. Sometimes, the obsession fades away, or finds another medium. Some lose the obsession early, some find it late, some switch to something else. And some go on working. And of those who continue, some get stuck in a rut, and some go on growing.

If there are references that answer these questions, I would like to know of them.
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There is a very long list of biographies of artists. Wether they were painters, writers or musicians doesn't matter.

Cheers
 
sreed2006 said:
...
Is there an essential difference between someone who can consistently produce great photographs and someone who is stuck at wanna-be?

Is there something (or somethings) that can be learned to get over the hump, with consistency?

Is being great just a gift that if you have you have, and if you don't you don't, and not something that can be learned?...
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Not an artist here and no intention to turn my little bit of photography and painting into anything commercial. I am in no way an artist, I just enjoy it as a creative outlet. So just some random thoughts with maybe a little common sense added for good measure;).

To stick to the orig. question and the emphasis of consistently produce great work ... I think even with truly great artist this is the exception. A lot of artist can produce a body of work that consists of exceptional quality work but there will usually stretches when inspiration runs low, whatever struggles of daily life pull the output quality down.

To be consistently great is an unrealistic pipe-dream. Perhaps Picasso was great everyday and he could touch anything and turn it into a masterpiece with a few touches.
To be successful in a commercial sense or being satisfied with one's own creative work or being recognized by other artists or being lauded by art critics that are totally different aspects of an artist life.
Being passionate, dedicated, focused, learning the craft and technique, learn from critique and being creative, all that is needed to be good. To be great, I think is a unique gift that only a very few possess. You can't learn that at art school or acquire it somewhere along the way of life.
 
I've been away for some hours and just got back and read the latest posts.

I would like to respond to all individually, but that would take a lot of space. Know that I have read these posts and appreciate the time and thought put into them, and the references cited.

At the On Line Photographer link, I liked that article, and the next, and the next one. Then I read the two part writings by Lady Elizabeth Eastlake, linked to on that page. That is deep prose, but quite an enjoyable read. Spoiler: you can find out under what color of colored glass tulips grow best (green, blue, or yellow?) and what that has to do with photography in the mid 1800s.

As for using a digital camera to capture the scene and read the EXIF data, that is great advice. I have used a DSLR as a learning tool; it provides endless opportunities for experimentation. Currently, I am shooting almost exclusively with film cameras, and have quite a bit of film in the fridge.

Starting this year, I have simplified my equipment list. It's only a single camera and single type of film at a time, until all of that type of film has been used up. That has helped reduce stupid mistakes considerably, and allowed me to concentrate more on the images I want to capture than on the hardware.

As for marketing - my only market is what I post on-line, such as here on RFF. My "pay" is only the appreciation shown by family, friends, and connections. I am under no illusion that I could convince anyone to pay for my pictures, unless you know of a really great marketer, FrankS. :D

This has been a very enjoyable and educational thread.
 
sreed2006 said:
Am I mistaken in believing a great photographer gets the image that they want? This is exactly where I fall down, and don't know exactly why.

Somehow, most times, what comes out of the camera is not at all what I saw and wanted to capture. This happens often, although once in awhile I do get what I wanted (and sometimes even better than I had hoped). Why it works sometimes and not others is still a mystery to me. I am trying to get past that mystery.
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It becomes more mysterious as you go along. Sometimes, a scene will attract me forcibly, like a magnet, making me shoot before I had time to register what I saw. It happens more often the more I shoot. A lot of the time, I was too late or too early, or I forgot to set the camera. I try to always have the camera ready for the conditions at hand : open up in the dark, speed up in the light, set the hyperfocal when appropriate. A discipline I'm still working to master.

Cheers!
 
lukitas said:
If you look at the really good artists, the common factor is obsession. They hammered at it. Woke up to do it, went to bed thinking about it, dreamt about it at night. Sometimes, the obsession fades away, or finds another medium. Some lose the obsession early, some find it late, some switch to something else. And some go on working. And of those who continue, some get stuck in a rut, and some go on growing.
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Obsession is a good point. I'm not saying that I'm a great photographer but my life can be judged by some as a bit imbalanced because photography for me has become a lifestyle that might not be sustainable.

Most of my disposable income goes into gear and printing supplies. I never cheap out, and I tend to bulk up. Last year I spent $8.2K on paper and ink alone, and now I am adding a second printer (Epson 7800). Meanwhile I eat nut butter sandwitches for lunch everyday at work, and I walk to work whenever I can to save the $2.75 Metrocard fare. The money has to come from somewhere...

Some of the best things I did was buy my Leica Monochrom. Understand that I was a B&W film only die-hard, and then printing on a large scale surely has made me into a better photographer. Know that I still use all my film gear...

I try to skirt perhaps the madness, dedication and obsession that perhaps W Eugene Smith displayed, hopefully without going off the deep end. Know that my goal is to print for exhibition, even though that may never happen, and is highly likely. To me photography is one thing I can control in life, meanwhile the rest of the world makes little sense to me. Understand that otherwise artistic despair would of taken my life from me. In a way art has saved my life, even though I live precariously.

BTW I have other interests in the arts like, the guitar and writing, but they are sidelined. Like a true surfer, I live for only one thing, I live for photography. To me it has become a lifestyle.

Cal
 
Mr. Fizzlesticks said:
Calzone, do you have a website or somewhere where we can see your work?
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Mr. Fizzlesticks,

I do not publish my personal work on the Internet. I don't think it is the best presentation of my work. Sorry.

Decades ago when I was a painter, I had a two person show in downtown Manhattan. Was in the "Gallery Guide" met the press... Not really such a big deal, and it didn't change my life one bit.

Like in the post about Ansel Adams career, I know that to make a living as a fine artist is remote or even impossible, but I am beyond artistic despair, and I don't really want to waste any time self promoting myself or my work. I let my work speak for itself, and the only person I really must please is myself. As selfish as this sounds, part of it is bitterness, part of it is being spiteful, FTW, and deep down so what if I got a gallery and a big show. At this point what matters in life is my photography...

Understand that I have been struggling in the arts in NYC for decades that includes as a painter, a performance artist, as a writer, and now full circle back into the visual arts as a photographer. I understand that I made several mistakes along the way if I wanted financial gain or fame. I'm actually OK with being, "just a guy with a poney tail." The other path gets pretty angry and that can be rather self destructive. Lost too many friends already...

I choose not to engage in these endeavors that are likely unfruitful. I know what is important to me, and perhaps only to me alone.

I hope you understand. The world of art is kinda closed, and somehow I created an alternative universe where I can find meaning. It is a safe place for me, and at least I get to express myself. It is OK to die in obscurity: many do. The alternative is to go out like W.Eugene Smith... or some of my friends...

While not my work you can see some of my photography that is published on "Maggie's Blog." Understand that she is the creative director, and that I just take the shot. I am not responsible for any post processing, editing or content. All I do is take the shot and download.

BTW I also think of myself as a printer. Know that I consider the 13x19's I'm printing as work prints for editing, and that exhibition prints of 20x30 and 24x36 I expect to begin printing soon. I'm a nudge about IQ and the best way to show off technic and craft is to print big.

Cal

POSTSCRIPT: One thing I learned is that if you really want to stand out is avoid doing what others are doing.
 
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Cal,

Thanks for bearing your soul here. That takes guts.

Appreciate your candor.

Can't you do some people photography to build a better income stream for youself? Maybe that's not your cup of tea and I apologize for sticking my nose into your affairs.

Have a wonderful weekend.
 
Some years ago, when I thought I had money, I took a workshop with a fine photographer. When we went around the room introducing ourselves, I said my name and added two fundamental truths about my photography: 1) After some 45 years of practice, I am my favorite photographer; and 2) I would not want to belong to a club that would have me as a member.

This approach is not for everyone but it works for me.
 
Bill Clark said:
Cal,

Thanks for bearing your soul here. That takes guts.

Appreciate your candor.

Can't you do some people photography to build a better income stream for youself? Maybe that's not your cup of tea and I apologize for sticking my nose into your affairs.

Have a wonderful weekend.
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Bill,

Thanks for your understanding.

You present a dilema for many people/artists. I chose to do a day-job that is unrelated to keep what I feel passionate about separate on purpose. I have a friend who is a pro fashion photographer who went to art school. It seems that while busy with work that he has little time for art. A heartbreaking story is that he got the opportunity to shoot an editorial for Vogue. This entails working for free because that's how young and up and coming fashion photographers are exploited. Anyways the editorial got shelved because the resort Island where the editorial was shot kinda got destroyed in a Hurricane. Mike's work BTW is totally freelance.

Many who go to art school who get jobs related to their art often find themselves and their creativity depleted by their day jobs. I avoided this situation. I kinda already have a comfortable income so I kinda enjoy a luxury lifestyle that has some comfort. I am not struggling financially, but I also do not compromise my art. My eating nut butter sandwitches every day at work is because I am greedy in wanting Leica lenses, an abundant supply of paper, and most of all the time to make art and a lack of artistic compromise.

I made my choice to have artistic freedom which was right for me. I know of too many friends that are in the arts that live in situations that are so stressful that are kinda doomed. My friend Mike I mentioned above works like a dog, and his job as a fashion photographer requires him managing a crew of people, and in the fashion world gigs always get firmed up at the last minute. This is not the life for me. My friend Tim is a musician, has no real job, no healthcare, and some how lives in Brooklyn. For a while (a summer) I couldn't contact Tim, I had not heard from him, and I began to worry that I lost yet another friend living a marginal life, but I later found out that he was in Belguim living in a tent learning Gypsy guitar from descendents of Dango Reinheart. LOL. My concern is that both Mike and Tim are young still, but what happens when they reach my age? I know of no shortage of very talented people, many with more talent than me.

I can tell you that many-many times I have come close to jumping the shark where that lucky break kinda came and then rapture happened and the cycling of hope leads to despair and depression. Imagine when I considered myself a writer that I finally heard from the "Hudson Review" and Paula Deitz the Editor that my story was passed onto the review board for publication, only to have it rejected by the review board. This publishing of a single story in such a publication would of changed my life because of the high caliber profile this is the fast track to getting an agent and publisher. Had I gotten published in the Hudson Review (likely one of the top literary magizines) agents and publishers would have contacted me and not the other way around.

Another writing defeat: I was short listed to attend the Breadloaf Writers' Conference. If someone cancelled I would have attended, but know that to attend this prestigious writers' conference you have to be invited. Typically only 235 people get invited each year, and attending means you basically get short tracked into the publishing world and you start your literary career. Getting in means you are no longer an outsider and you definitely make the contacts at a very high level and become elite.

Then there was the Roger Madoff Fellowship that offered a dollar amount on par to a Guegenhium Fellowship. One had to be a resident of Queens which I was at the time, living in Long Island City. As I remember another limitation is that it was also limited to nonfiction writers. Roger Madoff was the son of Bernie Madoff's brother who died of Cancer who was a journalist. It seemed like I had a great chance, but then the Ponzi scheme got exposed and the fellowship was cancelled.

Anyways there is a limit to how much artistic despair a person can take. I am only listing a few examples that are rather high caliber, and this is from a small divergence in my artistic career (about a decade). I don't want to waste my time or be consumed by anger. The art world is what it is... Fug them.

Cal
 
photomoof said:
Ah David -- luck -- and how to know when one is lucky? I did not recognise my luck on many occasions. Especially in love and art.

Monsieur O., wonderful post, you improved on my thoughts.
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My gratitude to you, sir, for fanning the spark.

Ah luck. Would that we would be so aware as to recognize her grace!

I turn the keyboard back to Mme. O. - she is waiting for FedEx - I must turn to work.

Salut!
 
mfogiel said:
The basic point is, if you want to be a GREAT ..... (fill out your favourite role in life), you need to live this thing 24/7 without thinking if it will ever pay off. Talent helps, but talent can be developed. As to great photographers - many of them have actually been or still are very prolific and on top of their game till the very end or till late in life. Think HCB, Avedon, Penn, Newton, Sieff, Kertesz, Mary Ellen Mark, Friedlander ( still going strong), etc...
On a side note, photography is in a quick transformation, and if I wanted to be a photographer starting today, I'd surely get involved with visual arts as a whole, beginning with history of art, graphic design and so on. The documentary role of photography has been largely taken over by Iphones and drones.
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For the most part I agree but would like to add that it is the larger audience who decides if you are great or not. Sure, you can have an internal compass based on a subconscious algorithm of experience ( Vivian Maier ) that tells you when you are on to something. But at the end of the day, week or life, it is the critical acclaim you receive, awards, the sheer celebration of it all by other people that goes well beyond the simple inane "likes" or "Great Capture" comments that keeps a pulse on your creative output.

If you want to be truly great at anything, like is said above, you have to live it in full, be obsessed, restless and often push your self outside your comfort zone to arrive at a place that is beyond your own expectations....and even then, you may still not be considered great.

But most important of all...you have to forget about being great, what that means and simply be real.

I have been absolutely blessed to thus far, have had a wonderfully surprising and successful career and life as a photographer for 29 years straight and at age 48, I am far from done. But I would never self assign or consider my self great, that is for others to decide, not me. And no matter what I am told by clients, awards, friends or family, I am totally committed and fully obsessed to getting better, deeper, more real.

I don't know if I will ever be great, but I know I have it in my core to keep getting better for the rest of my life.
 
Talent a Gift?

Talent a Gift?

Sid, there is no such thing as 'talent', if there is one, it means
that you have some sort of psychological immunity, or 'gift'
of tolerance to failure.

Such is practice, but advancement at a craft or skill comes in stages, or plateaus,
that are often very hard to conquer to the next higher level.
This is where a mentor can save a lot of time.

Where mentoring fails, is when it becomes a comfortable adaptation to another's style.

The goal is to learn one's own song, but that requires first learning how to listen.

In photography that's learning how to see.
 
Previously, I suggested that skill, effort, determination, marketing, and luck were the essential ingredients to becoming a great photographer. Of these, luck can play the greatest role.
 
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