RdEoSg
Well-known
Personally like some others have mentioned here, the next thing I'd like to see Leica do is either give up on making point and shoot digitals, or put some decent sensors in the things to start with. The Leica and Panasonic sensors are absolute garbage compared to the other big camera brands.
Every time a used Panasonic or Leica P&S comes in to the store I work at, I test it against the Canon's we carry. I would love to switch over and get one with Leica glass but the Canon images are always twice as good at half the price. I don't get the concept. It is plain as day to see that the images have more noise than the Canon's and yet they do nothing to solve the problem? Who cares how great the glass is and how big the screen is if the half price Canon looks twice as good?!?!?!
Several times I have done quick real world tests with the cameras. I'll take shots inside and outside the store using the same iso settings, color settings, etc. And then show customers the images with out telling them which were the Leica or Panasonic shots, and which were the Canon shots. The customers choose the Canon photos every time.
Every time a used Panasonic or Leica P&S comes in to the store I work at, I test it against the Canon's we carry. I would love to switch over and get one with Leica glass but the Canon images are always twice as good at half the price. I don't get the concept. It is plain as day to see that the images have more noise than the Canon's and yet they do nothing to solve the problem? Who cares how great the glass is and how big the screen is if the half price Canon looks twice as good?!?!?!
Several times I have done quick real world tests with the cameras. I'll take shots inside and outside the store using the same iso settings, color settings, etc. And then show customers the images with out telling them which were the Leica or Panasonic shots, and which were the Canon shots. The customers choose the Canon photos every time.
Last edited:
Ajax
Jonathan Eastland
Point and shoot compacts
Point and shoot compacts
I don't want to set the world on fire but if indications from a recent (end June) big manufacturer media symposium in Lisbon is anything to go by, the kind of compact point and shoot digital cameras we now see may soon be a thing of the past. The talk is all about nice n'squeezy polymer lenses and bundled corrective software in something that could look like an oversized plastic bodied postcard - touch screens and big ones at that. You'd probably be right in hazarding a guess that all the companies in this market which have short camera making histories will persue the masses with low end products producing acceptable (for the target maket) levels of image quality, while some of those who have longer tails will struggle to survive in an even smaller niche than they presently occupy, but with better (and more expensive) products.
For Leica enthusiasts (me too !), we had better hope that Mr Lee pulls something out of the hat soon. I believe he may be thinking something retro, but (D)CL, or (D)CM or (D)111G is anyone's guess and probably not before they are all camped in the new Leitz Park in Wetzlar.
regards
Jonathan
Kodachrome - use it or lose it!
>www.ajaxnetphoto.com<
Point and shoot compacts
I don't want to set the world on fire but if indications from a recent (end June) big manufacturer media symposium in Lisbon is anything to go by, the kind of compact point and shoot digital cameras we now see may soon be a thing of the past. The talk is all about nice n'squeezy polymer lenses and bundled corrective software in something that could look like an oversized plastic bodied postcard - touch screens and big ones at that. You'd probably be right in hazarding a guess that all the companies in this market which have short camera making histories will persue the masses with low end products producing acceptable (for the target maket) levels of image quality, while some of those who have longer tails will struggle to survive in an even smaller niche than they presently occupy, but with better (and more expensive) products.
For Leica enthusiasts (me too !), we had better hope that Mr Lee pulls something out of the hat soon. I believe he may be thinking something retro, but (D)CL, or (D)CM or (D)111G is anyone's guess and probably not before they are all camped in the new Leitz Park in Wetzlar.
regards
Jonathan
Kodachrome - use it or lose it!
>www.ajaxnetphoto.com<
ccs
Member
I think a fixed lens 38 mm equiv. F2 or so, on a 1.5 or 1.6 crop sensor that shoots Raw would sell well, if it wasn't priced too high. It seems like the only thing that no one has made and most people would like. I thought Sigma was going to do it with a slow F4 lens, but it doesn't seem to be materializing.
F456
Tom H
What I would like...
What I would like...
Jonathan,
What I would like:
1. I know flash is usually far from M-users' thoughts but just sometimes a decent bounceable flash along the lines of - but not as big as - Nikon's SB800 would be useful. Ideally it would be small enough to fit the compact feel of the M-series (film and M8), would have bounce capability, and would be just that step beyond the current straight-ahead flash units like the SF24D. It would zoom at least to fit the standard 28mm FOV, but maybe no more since the shorter FOVs always need accessory finders and they take up the hotshoe space. I suspect that some of the current Metz offerings are a bit unwieldy with M-style bodies.
2. A 24mm that doesn't take up so much of the viewfinder in the M8. Maybe a bit like the new 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M ASPH. I know that the current 24mm Elmarit is a cracking lens optically, of course. But it would be nice for the widest length useable in the M8's built-in finder not to block so much of the view through it.
3. A recomputed longer length with goggles but not as large or heavy as the discontinued 135mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M to give 180mm FOV coverage or something close to it on the M8. It could be a slightly shorter focal length presumably as all that is needed viewing-wise would be to provide ocular magnification for the 90mm frame to correspond to the chosen focal length (whether 100, 105, 120, 135, or whatever). I believe that the glasses used in the 135/2.8 ceased to be available in the mid 90s, but I could be incorrect. I know 135mm isn't that fashionable a length, but there are people (like me!) who use it.
Thank you,
Tom
What I would like...
Jonathan,
What I would like:
1. I know flash is usually far from M-users' thoughts but just sometimes a decent bounceable flash along the lines of - but not as big as - Nikon's SB800 would be useful. Ideally it would be small enough to fit the compact feel of the M-series (film and M8), would have bounce capability, and would be just that step beyond the current straight-ahead flash units like the SF24D. It would zoom at least to fit the standard 28mm FOV, but maybe no more since the shorter FOVs always need accessory finders and they take up the hotshoe space. I suspect that some of the current Metz offerings are a bit unwieldy with M-style bodies.
2. A 24mm that doesn't take up so much of the viewfinder in the M8. Maybe a bit like the new 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M ASPH. I know that the current 24mm Elmarit is a cracking lens optically, of course. But it would be nice for the widest length useable in the M8's built-in finder not to block so much of the view through it.
3. A recomputed longer length with goggles but not as large or heavy as the discontinued 135mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M to give 180mm FOV coverage or something close to it on the M8. It could be a slightly shorter focal length presumably as all that is needed viewing-wise would be to provide ocular magnification for the 90mm frame to correspond to the chosen focal length (whether 100, 105, 120, 135, or whatever). I believe that the glasses used in the 135/2.8 ceased to be available in the mid 90s, but I could be incorrect. I know 135mm isn't that fashionable a length, but there are people (like me!) who use it.
Thank you,
Tom
Last edited:
spysmart
Established
What's next ?
What's next ?
M8:
I hope we get a M8-2 soon - with something like on sensor micro-lens IR filters.
If 10K M8s have been sold, could that mean their supply contract can be re-negotiated with Kodak and a fix incorporated.
I don't really want to wait another couple of year for proven M9, but I will if nothing changes.
Lenses:
24mm Summicron please.
Is the 50mm Summicron price hike to ration demand until the ASPH replacement comes on line?
Compact:
A Pan-Leica non-changeable 19mm (38mm equiv) f/2.8 with a 4/3 sensor and OVF please.
( NB: make it all black Leica, not cheap looking 2 tone, or I will buy the Panasonic one )
What's next ?
M8:
I hope we get a M8-2 soon - with something like on sensor micro-lens IR filters.
If 10K M8s have been sold, could that mean their supply contract can be re-negotiated with Kodak and a fix incorporated.
I don't really want to wait another couple of year for proven M9, but I will if nothing changes.
Lenses:
24mm Summicron please.
Is the 50mm Summicron price hike to ration demand until the ASPH replacement comes on line?
Compact:
A Pan-Leica non-changeable 19mm (38mm equiv) f/2.8 with a 4/3 sensor and OVF please.
( NB: make it all black Leica, not cheap looking 2 tone, or I will buy the Panasonic one )
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Well, I'm not Jonathan Eastland (does he ever really post here, or am I missing something), but I'd like that Digital CL (CDL?). It wouldn't have to be the size of the CL to make me happy, though that might be nice! If it could be the size and shape of a Nikon FM or even F3, I would be happy. So as not to compete too much with the M8, some compromises could be made.
For instance, it can have a moire filter. The pictures may not be quite as sharp, for instance, but it would make life simpler for some of us, not to have to worry about an IR filter. Resolution? 7.5 megapixels should do it. That's enough for a first-class 8 x 10, and, I tend to think, 11 x 14 or even larger. As to CF card vs. SD, I could go either way, though the SD would fit into a smaller camera. Possible the sensor size should be the more common 18 x 24mm, with a 1.5 crop factor, to reduce competition with M8 and its 1.33 factor.
I'm calling for a body shape more like a Nikon than like the R4 through R7, because the slightly tapered contour and small size of the latter models feels less secure in my hands. It needs to be just a tad longer/wider than the R cameras, to allow enough room for fingers.
A winding lever? No. Form should follow function. You don't need a winding lever on a digital. A good rubber grippy coating, a rubber thumb perch on the back, and a small grip contour on the front will be enough to ensure secure hand-holding.
Since a rangefinder does not need a mirror, I want a live-view LCD panel. Live view is one of the advantages of a digital camera. I think it could be achieved.
It should have an ultrasonic sensor cleaner.
It can, and probably should, be made in Japan to hold cost down. Leica purists will then want the made-in-Germany M8, which will help prevent the CDL (Compact Digital Leica) from competing too seriously with the M8.
For instance, it can have a moire filter. The pictures may not be quite as sharp, for instance, but it would make life simpler for some of us, not to have to worry about an IR filter. Resolution? 7.5 megapixels should do it. That's enough for a first-class 8 x 10, and, I tend to think, 11 x 14 or even larger. As to CF card vs. SD, I could go either way, though the SD would fit into a smaller camera. Possible the sensor size should be the more common 18 x 24mm, with a 1.5 crop factor, to reduce competition with M8 and its 1.33 factor.
I'm calling for a body shape more like a Nikon than like the R4 through R7, because the slightly tapered contour and small size of the latter models feels less secure in my hands. It needs to be just a tad longer/wider than the R cameras, to allow enough room for fingers.
A winding lever? No. Form should follow function. You don't need a winding lever on a digital. A good rubber grippy coating, a rubber thumb perch on the back, and a small grip contour on the front will be enough to ensure secure hand-holding.
Since a rangefinder does not need a mirror, I want a live-view LCD panel. Live view is one of the advantages of a digital camera. I think it could be achieved.
It should have an ultrasonic sensor cleaner.
It can, and probably should, be made in Japan to hold cost down. Leica purists will then want the made-in-Germany M8, which will help prevent the CDL (Compact Digital Leica) from competing too seriously with the M8.
simondsch
Newbie
My suggestion for Leica is to continue to build products geared to the prosperous enthusiast and the professionals, it is the market they have now and it seems to be a good business. Canon and Nikon seem to be doing quite well in this market with body+lens combinations of roughly the same cost as a M8 with Summicron or Summilux lenses. I internet rumor mill suggests that the production rates of Canon 1D and Nikon D2X and D3 bodies are a few thousand units a month, not wildly more than the M8's production rate. Nikon and Canon have maintained home country, Japanese, production of their professional lines. It appears that both Nikon and Canon have segregated the Professional products from the rapid product cycle and low cost manufacturing of their consumer product lines. Where Nikon and Canon have an advantage of Leica is in marketing and distribution where Leica's cameras cannot share costs with a mass-market product line.
If the concept behind the tie-in with Panasonic was to develop a mass-market camera business, Leica seems to have bet on the wrong horse. Virtually all of the Panasonic products have had some major flaw and their market penetration does not seem significant, at least in North America.
Given market realities what should Leica do next that will appeal to the market they seem to have? I will totally ignore the collector market, I don't understand it. The M8's small body, quiet operation and fast lenses offer advantages over the Canon 1D/1Ds and the Nikon D3 bodies coupled to zoom lenses generally with a maximum aperture of f2.8. Those factors seem to have made the M8 enough a success to market the available inventory of M8 bodies and totally over oversubscribe the market for Leica lenses. After years of struggle Leica seems to have found a real market.
It can be assumed that the production run of the M8 as currently designed will be limited by the availability of electronic components. For example the sensor by Kodak and the processor from Analogue Devices will probably go out of production in a year or so. I doubt that it will be possible to make new M8's in 5 years, probably less. The component availability issue suggests that the natural progression from the M8 would be one with new electronics. Given that Leica’s strength seems to be in low light and hand held photography the obvious path to grow is for a sensor with better low light (i.e. high ISO) response, and improved software or firmware to improve color response and noise reduction. A small camera which can yield high quality images at an ISO of 1600 with a f1.4 of f 2 lens is my dream. Further down my personal priority list would be in-body vibration reduction and sensor cleaning. For hand-held photography sensors with more than 12 Mp seem of little advantage, especially if the added sensors come at the expense of nloise.
If the concept behind the tie-in with Panasonic was to develop a mass-market camera business, Leica seems to have bet on the wrong horse. Virtually all of the Panasonic products have had some major flaw and their market penetration does not seem significant, at least in North America.
Given market realities what should Leica do next that will appeal to the market they seem to have? I will totally ignore the collector market, I don't understand it. The M8's small body, quiet operation and fast lenses offer advantages over the Canon 1D/1Ds and the Nikon D3 bodies coupled to zoom lenses generally with a maximum aperture of f2.8. Those factors seem to have made the M8 enough a success to market the available inventory of M8 bodies and totally over oversubscribe the market for Leica lenses. After years of struggle Leica seems to have found a real market.
It can be assumed that the production run of the M8 as currently designed will be limited by the availability of electronic components. For example the sensor by Kodak and the processor from Analogue Devices will probably go out of production in a year or so. I doubt that it will be possible to make new M8's in 5 years, probably less. The component availability issue suggests that the natural progression from the M8 would be one with new electronics. Given that Leica’s strength seems to be in low light and hand held photography the obvious path to grow is for a sensor with better low light (i.e. high ISO) response, and improved software or firmware to improve color response and noise reduction. A small camera which can yield high quality images at an ISO of 1600 with a f1.4 of f 2 lens is my dream. Further down my personal priority list would be in-body vibration reduction and sensor cleaning. For hand-held photography sensors with more than 12 Mp seem of little advantage, especially if the added sensors come at the expense of nloise.
HAnkg
Well-known
next
next
Two things I'd like to see:
For the next version of the M8 an improved optical rangefinder using LCD technology for the frames to correct for not only parralax but also frame size. It should look just like the current finder just more accurate. Also make ISO and EV analogue controls.
A small sensor B+W camera based on the electronics of the current Panasonic P&S's. The grainy digital version of a barnack camera loaded with Tri-X. With a decent RAW buffer, optical viewfinder, analogue controls and a hyperfocal mode you set the aperture and focus locks on the correct hyperfocal distance. Fixed 35mm equivilent lens or a 28-50 bi-summarit switch focal lengths and finder mag by turning knurled ring on the finder. See photos.
next
Two things I'd like to see:
For the next version of the M8 an improved optical rangefinder using LCD technology for the frames to correct for not only parralax but also frame size. It should look just like the current finder just more accurate. Also make ISO and EV analogue controls.
A small sensor B+W camera based on the electronics of the current Panasonic P&S's. The grainy digital version of a barnack camera loaded with Tri-X. With a decent RAW buffer, optical viewfinder, analogue controls and a hyperfocal mode you set the aperture and focus locks on the correct hyperfocal distance. Fixed 35mm equivilent lens or a 28-50 bi-summarit switch focal lengths and finder mag by turning knurled ring on the finder. See photos.
Attachments
emraphoto
Veteran
"If this Mr. Lee is merging Leica with Panasonic, and I already know Panasonic & Leica styles of the same bodies exhist today, (which is a big mistake IMHO). If Mr Lee is going after the soccer moms of America, and thinks he can compete with Canon and Nikon. He's driving the nail in the coffin for Leica. Go to a Circuit City and check out the prices on the Rebel xti and the new slr Nikon has out. These are great quality cameras at fantastic prices. Panasonic, with several other brands will fall in the next while I beleive, unless R&D comes up with something truly amazing. Leica is a nitche company and they will not survive the ditigal race if they go this route i'm afraid."
in the many years of using an dfollowing leica products i cannot tell you how many times i have heard the "seemimgly inevitable demise" of leica routine. i for one would like to see leica concentrate on improving and supporting the m8 platform. i don't ask for full frame as i know perfectly well the m8 full frame will be a tad out of my price range. continue with the "soccer mom" market... increase market value, better the m8 and perhaps, just perhaps use all the formula's that i am sure are well under way to slightly reduce the purchase cost of the m8. it would be, in my opinion, foolish to not assume leica is full bore into a dslr project right now .
in the many years of using an dfollowing leica products i cannot tell you how many times i have heard the "seemimgly inevitable demise" of leica routine. i for one would like to see leica concentrate on improving and supporting the m8 platform. i don't ask for full frame as i know perfectly well the m8 full frame will be a tad out of my price range. continue with the "soccer mom" market... increase market value, better the m8 and perhaps, just perhaps use all the formula's that i am sure are well under way to slightly reduce the purchase cost of the m8. it would be, in my opinion, foolish to not assume leica is full bore into a dslr project right now .
emraphoto
Veteran
ps hank... i'd buy one! when do you think you can have them ready to ship?
HAnkg
Well-known
While I'm sure there are many who would like to see a compact CL or fixed lens CM with perhaps an APS-C (1.6x crop factor) sized chip. Judging from the size and price of Leica's 4/3 (2.0x crop factor) cameras it doesn't seem possible any time soon.emraphoto said:
The Ricoh GRD has ushered in a new digital small format aesthetic. Very much in the tradition of the original Leica small format reportage camera.
Why be content with just rebadging Panasonic P&S's. A repackaged Panasonic with the right user interface, firmware, lens and optical finder would make a great small sensor reportage camera. No need to develop the electronics just lift them from one of the current Panasonics. Leica could charge maybe $300 more then Ricoh to cover the added expense of the optical finder. Or make the finder an optional accessory and make it output color so it can double as a posh retro point and shoot. Having access to the color info gives you more choices in the final look of the B&W image anyway. Have it manufactured in Asia along with the rebadged P&S cameras. It seems like it is something that is doable with current resources and technology. Could become a cult classic.
HAnkg
Well-known
I'd add one more thing I'd like to see in the next M8. Shake reduction on sensor with the ability to switch it off.
Rather then excessive software anti-noise routines which give very digital looking smoothed images, put vibration reduction on the sensor. With Canon and Nikon putting ISO 6400+ into their new cameras, a Leica sensor with vibration reduction, lack of SLR mirror slap combined with Leica's fast primes would give better low light results at lower ISO's with less software artifacts with the added flexibility of getting more DOF when you need it in low light conditions. Imagine a Leica prime shot at f/1.4, 1/8th at ISO 640 with IS/VR compared to a Canon L zoom shot at f2.8, 1/30 at ISO 12,000 (I trhink I got the math right).
Rather then excessive software anti-noise routines which give very digital looking smoothed images, put vibration reduction on the sensor. With Canon and Nikon putting ISO 6400+ into their new cameras, a Leica sensor with vibration reduction, lack of SLR mirror slap combined with Leica's fast primes would give better low light results at lower ISO's with less software artifacts with the added flexibility of getting more DOF when you need it in low light conditions. Imagine a Leica prime shot at f/1.4, 1/8th at ISO 640 with IS/VR compared to a Canon L zoom shot at f2.8, 1/30 at ISO 12,000 (I trhink I got the math right
).
IGMeanwell
Well-known
HAnkg said:I'd add one more thing I'd like to see in the next M8. Shake reduction on sensor with the ability to switch it off.
Rather then excessive software anti-noise routines which give very digital looking smoothed images, put vibration reduction on the sensor. With Canon and Nikon putting ISO 6400+ into their new cameras, a Leica sensor with vibration reduction, lack of SLR mirror slap combined with Leica's fast primes would give better low light results at lower ISO's with less software artifacts with the added flexibility of getting more DOF when you need it in low light conditions. Imagine a Leica prime shot at f/1.4, 1/8th at ISO 640 with IS/VR compared to a Canon L zoom shot at f2.8, 1/30 at ISO 12,000 (I trhink I got the math right
Well in a perfect world, they could strike some sort of contract with Sony allowing them to use the Sony sensors and their Super Steady Shot (basically the Minolta anti-shake sensor shift tech), which can be turned on or off ... though unless Sony does it with their alleged Flag-ship model due out ... I haven't seen a Full frame camera with sensor shift yet
spysmart
Established
Shake reduction isn't going to help in many situations - subjects move.
With a M6 and 35 1.4 ASPH and 800 ISO Fuji @ 1/15s I seem to be able record more than eye can see. But people keep moving - very quickly when dancing etc. Higher ISO is the only solution in those situations. I can see why sports photographer are going to love the 25600 ISO boost on the D3 . But look at the size of that camera with a f/2.8 STD zoom - compared to a M + 35 'lux.
If Leica are going to be stuck with a crop sensor - a 24 'cron or 28 'lux could be the answer - but v/f cut off would be more of an issue.
I would like to see a 6Mpixel M8 variant with a clean 6400 ISO image as a step forwards. A 12Mpixel low ISO model would be a nice compliment ( similar to Canon's 1D and 1Ds strategy )
On the compact side: The GRD came nowhere close to a GR1 with fuji 800 - so I sold mine ( even NPH @400 looked better than the GRD at 100 ).
A GRDmkII is expected soon - if they have listened to all the feedback, they tip not to 12Mp of noise, but to 6Mp of speed with an OVF. The GX100 can be the consumer Mp race, general purpose camera. The GRD needs to 'go against' the flow in order to win my respect. Leica shows no signs of being able to get anything as creative as that out of Panasonic.
With a M6 and 35 1.4 ASPH and 800 ISO Fuji @ 1/15s I seem to be able record more than eye can see. But people keep moving - very quickly when dancing etc. Higher ISO is the only solution in those situations. I can see why sports photographer are going to love the 25600 ISO boost on the D3 . But look at the size of that camera with a f/2.8 STD zoom - compared to a M + 35 'lux.
If Leica are going to be stuck with a crop sensor - a 24 'cron or 28 'lux could be the answer - but v/f cut off would be more of an issue.
I would like to see a 6Mpixel M8 variant with a clean 6400 ISO image as a step forwards. A 12Mpixel low ISO model would be a nice compliment ( similar to Canon's 1D and 1Ds strategy )
On the compact side: The GRD came nowhere close to a GR1 with fuji 800 - so I sold mine ( even NPH @400 looked better than the GRD at 100 ).
A GRDmkII is expected soon - if they have listened to all the feedback, they tip not to 12Mp of noise, but to 6Mp of speed with an OVF. The GX100 can be the consumer Mp race, general purpose camera. The GRD needs to 'go against' the flow in order to win my respect. Leica shows no signs of being able to get anything as creative as that out of Panasonic.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Taking less than 15 seconds to record a RAW file would be a nice add-on as well.spysmart said:
Philipp
HAnkg
Well-known
It's not a panacea but it will help in many low light shots of the sort the M is used for. Rangefinders are not going to be the choice of sports photographers even if super high ISO were available.spysmart said:
That's not the point. Photographers are embracing the noise (in B&W) and the incredible DOF and producing some very good work. It's not unlike the early Leica with it's low quality, grainy tiny film format in an age when press photographers shot 4x5 for quality. Not everyone loves pushed TRi-X (just an anology not comparing actual quality or results) but some do and produce great stuff with it.spysmart said:
Look at some of the most iconic 35mm images. Many are soft, grainy with much less resolution and detail then is possible with modern lenses and film emulsions. But the impact and look is transcendent. A tiny small format reportage camera would be very much in the Leica tradition.
Last edited:
PeterL
--
iiig reintroduction ?
iiig reintroduction ?
Would that be a digital iiig ? I'd sign for that without thinking ! "Name your price and add a couple of zeroes at the back !" (okay, maybe I'm not *that* rich)
Peter.
iiig reintroduction ?
Ajax said:
Would that be a digital iiig ? I'd sign for that without thinking ! "Name your price and add a couple of zeroes at the back !" (okay, maybe I'm not *that* rich)
Peter.