what's the big knock against digital b&w?

jippiejee said:
Since some of us live in small apartments without the space for a darkroom, scanning film and shooting digital will have to do for us poor city dwellers. Yes we're fake, and we look up in admiration to those of you doing the real thing every day. Please don't ban us from the boards for being cheap copyists of the real photo artists here.
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You city dwellers have access to rent some of the best built darkrooms in the world with the best equipment or join a community darkroom. I spent the last 5 years living in Vancouver, Edmonton and New York City and never went without a darkroom when I wanted to use one. Even used my bathroom to make up to 16x20 prints. You also have close proximity to all the supplies and equipment you need. Don't be jealous of us living in the boonies. No excuses you cheap, fake copyist!
 
I am 100% film for my BW, but I have seen many digital BW images, here and elsewhere, that I simply love. For me, the choice is about cost and equipment. Every digital camera I know about has a problem attached; either too expensive, too big and awkard, too cumbersome to manage the controls, too awkard to manually control focus. I love the film cameras and if you like to see your images in print form, which I do, the overall cost is much lower.
 
BobYIL said:
I could not see any "extended spectral response" on that curves as beyond 650-700nm everything is in "undesired" IR-range; .
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Surely that depends on what you desire?

http://www.achromaticplus.com/www.achromaticplus.com/The_Back.html

Conventional black & white copy photography with preservation of extreme tonal ranges.
•Extended ultraviolet & infared imaging sensitivity for image analysis and authentication.
•Digital zone-system technology with complete optical filtering capabilities.
•Multi-image spectral separation photography for pure color separation imaging and preservation of color originals.
•Ideal for glass plate imaging, large format aerial film digitization and volume digitization projects demanding the utmost in image quality.

We are not talking Tri-X territory here which is why, we agree, the Leica implementation will be interesting. There may be a range of filters on the sensor to special order and/or a range of lens filters.
 
I find the biggest knock regarding digital B&W is that most prints are made with color paper. Of course, you can come pretty darn close when you're making the prints with a printer set up with inks that can reproduce B&W.

To nothing better than a Ag Gel print!
 
I have done BW film for at least 50 yrs. I have yet to see the same feel in a digital BW image. Of course there are some outstanding images made but they are not the same.
 
Thanks for putting that together Bob, that is really interesting! The difference between film and digital looks even more dramatic in the final graph because of the extended scale of the X axis vs the first chart that shows the HP5 curve but even accounting for that it's still more than small change.
 
JayM said:
Thanks for putting that together Bob, that is really interesting! The difference between film and digital looks even more dramatic in the final graph because of the extended scale of the X axis vs the first chart that shows the HP5 curve but even accounting for that it's still more than small change.
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"The extended scale of the X axis...." has nothing to do with us.. We, as general photographers this side of the special or scientific interests , are interested in only the visible portion of the spectrum, that is roughly between 400nm to 700nm in photography.. Beyond -and beneath- that our cameras (or film) are designed to "eliminate" all other wavelengths this or that way due to their undesired effects on the outputs. Note that all dynamic range measurements are based on the mentioned range.
 
facinating conversation...

if i were to boil everything that i have just read down to one simple statement it would look something like...'the biggest knock against digital black and white is that...it's not film!

i can live with that.
i like and prefer the look of a clean grain free image. many folks go to medium and large format to tone down the grain.
i am pleased that digital is different from film...choice is a wonderful thing.
i have printed in a wet darkroom, on and off, for more than 30 years, got pretty good at it, sold lots of prints and had some published...i think i can tell a good wet print from a crappy wet print and i know the 'joy' of film and wet prints...

but it's new times and i for one am embracing them.

to each his/her own...
 
BobYIL said:
"The extended scale of the X axis...." has nothing to do with us.. We, as general photographers this side of the special or scientific interests , are interested in only the visible portion of the spectrum, that is roughly between 400nm to 700nm in photography.. Beyond -and beneath- that our cameras (or film) are designed to "eliminate" all other wavelengths this or that way due to their undesired effects on the outputs. Note that all dynamic range measurements are based on the mentioned range.
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Righto, just saying that someone who is "graph impaired" or careless might not notice the different scales and assume they are the same. The difference is large no matter what, but if you carelessly assumed that the CCD graph only went to 750 like the HP5 graph it'd look like the CCD tanks through an even bigger spectrum than it already does.
 
back alley said:
facinating conversation...

if i were to boil everything that i have just read down to one simple statement it would look something like...'the biggest knock against digital black and white is that...it's not film!

i can live with that.
i like and prefer the look of a clean grain free image. many folks go to medium and large format to tone down the grain.
i am pleased that digital is different from film...choice is a wonderful thing.
i have printed in a wet darkroom, on and off, for more than 30 years, got pretty good at it, sold lots of prints and had some published...i think i can tell a good wet print from a crappy wet print and i know the 'joy' of film and wet prints...



but it's new times and i for one am embracing them.

to each his/her own...
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This basically sums it up for me as well. I'm not finding digital lacking, and yes I have printed traditionally - in fact was trained to do so.

Getting good black and white from digital is hard. Getting good black and white from black and white is hard too. Being good at one does not make one good at the other and that causes frustration. Not everyone is interested in taking on the learning curve and I suspect those are the ones that say digital b&w is inferior. It's a different medium, not a lesser one.
 
BobYIL said:
I herewith will try to shed a light on the discussions of film B&W vs. digital B&W from -a little- engineering point of view; with as simple terms as possible.

Regards,

Bob
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Very nice Bob.

You could probably get round this by profiling the sensor in the camera and the film stock that is to be emulated. That information would be incorporated in to a 3d look up table that would handle the conversion.

It's done a lot in the movie business, but building a LUT like that is not a trivial task.

I suspect that the guys who make Truegrain may be doing something like this.

http://www.grubbasoft.com/index.html
 
The issue of different spectral response is valid, as is the the issue of a sensor's linear exposure curve vs the characteristic curves of various films.

However, this is mostly resolved with a few computer strokes in you favorite film emulation software.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Grain is not intrinsic to digital as it is with film, and adding it to digital files is just dumb. If you want grain, use the medium that has it: fast films. So much of our modern world is falsehood built on lie built on delusion. There is nothing wrong with authenticity; with using an artistic medium in a way that is honest and honors that medium's nature.
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Dear Chris,

That's my feeling, too. Add-on grain, along with fake Polaroid edges and faux filed-out negative carriers on digital images remind me of those 'oil painting' photographs where clear, thick varnish is laid over the picture with a brush to create 'brush strokes' and make it 'look like a painting'.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Chris,

That's my feeling, too. Add-on grain, along with fake Polaroid edges and faux filed-out negative carriers on digital images remind me of those 'oil painting' photographs where clear, thick varnish is laid over the picture with a brush to create 'brush strokes' and make it 'look like a painting'.

Cheers,

R.
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I agree Roger. Let digital be digital.
 
back alley said:
facinating conversation...

if i were to boil everything that i have just read down to one simple statement it would look something like...'the biggest knock against digital black and white is that...it's not film!

i can live with that.
i like and prefer the look of a clean grain free image. many folks go to medium and large format to tone down the grain.
i am pleased that digital is different from film...choice is a wonderful thing.
i have printed in a wet darkroom, on and off, for more than 30 years, got pretty good at it, sold lots of prints and had some published...i think i can tell a good wet print from a crappy wet print and i know the 'joy' of film and wet prints...

but it's new times and i for one am embracing them.

to each his/her own...
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I do like Joe's summary...the technical aspects of threads like this give me a headache. I would rather be out shooting.:angel: Now load those cameras with the medium of your choice (film or memory card) and get out there and shoot something!😛
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
I do think adding grain in post processing is silly. (...) and adding it to digital files is just dumb.
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It´s not silly or dumb, it´s how I want my pictures to look. A tad of texture looks more pleasing than a super clean file, at least to me.

Everything goes, that is digital. If I am happy with the results - or the audience is - perfect.

Who are you to tell me what is silly and dumb?
 
back alley said:
but it's new times and i for one am embracing them.
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This includes a presumption that those who think film looks better are somehow 'in denial', or backward-looking nostalgists, unable or unwilling to face the challenge of "new times".

I come from a digital background, and work every day with digital media, but then I saw the real difference between how film and a digital sensor captures light - especially bright light and abrupt transitions (amongst other differences) - and since then the rubbish I read about how these immense differences are merely a matter of 'taste' or a few clicks of software really incense me. It's as offensive as listening to some oaf in a museum laughing at a Picasso, or saying that "a five year old could paint better".

By all means use digital or film or your iPhone with Hipstamatic (I use all of these), but spare me the sermons.
 
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