When a CLA isn't a CLA

[Timmyjoe]

Got a rude awakening yesterday. Back in the day I used to service motion picture cameras and lenses. When a camera (Arriflex) came in for a CLA, we would take the camera completely apart, ultrasonically clean everything, then rebuilt the camera to factory specs, using all original factory lubricants. With lenses, we would break them down to their cemented lens groups, clean everything, and re-assemble them to factory spec using factory lubes.

I have a Leica lens that I love, but that has more internal dust than I would like, and the focus is getting a little stiff. So I talked with Leica about doing a CLA on the lens. They said sure, and the price would be between $250 to $375, which I felt was reasonable as there was nothing that needed replacement or fixing on the lens. I asked about using a cleanroom for re-assembly as I wanted the inside to be dust free. To my shock I was informed that the $250-$375 didn't include taking the lens apart, just an external cleaning and possible lubrication and making sure focus was good. So I asked what it would cost to disassemble the lens, clean between the elements, and re-assemble everything to factory specs with factory lubes. I was told it would be well over $1000.

So I guess in the last ten years the definition of Clean, Lube, and Adjust has changed drastically.

Best,
-Tim

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I've noticed a lot of people selling cameras here in the classifieds that the sellers say were recently serviced or CLA'd, then they'll go one to say something like "High shutter speeds are erratic" or "Just a little fungus inside the lens" or some other major defect that the CLA should have fixed. Who the heck sends a camera off for service and accepts it back without it working right? Seems like a waste of money to me.

 

[Spicy]

They're just trying to clean, lube, and adjust your wallet.

 

[Ronald M]

Why I do not buy used

 

[David Hughes]

Why I do not buy used

Hi,

It's a good reason but I wonder where I can buy new cameras that take film; apart from the obvious that would cost more than my car.

My solution is to buy good looking cameras and check them myself as much as possible, then get them sorted out by technicians I trust. I just wish they had apprentices...

Regards, David

 

[Vickko]

Um, yeah, CLA doesn't have "rebuild" in it.

Typically just an "open up as far as needed, some lubrication, some cleaning if needed" and put it back together.

Certainly not a rebuild. Not for only a couple hundred dollars.

 

[maddoc]

I think the key here is "overhaul" vs "CLA". I had to sent a camera that had been "CLA`ed" to Leica because film winding was erratic and I spotted some oil droplets on the shutter curtains. After inspecting the camera I was told that excessive application of oil had ruined the film wind mechanism, parts would have to be exchanged and the camera cleaned, lubricated and adjusted (not CLA`ed ...). Total was about US$750 (in 2008) ...

 

[zuiko85]

Why I do not buy used

If the used prices are close (.85 to .95) of new prices and the new is still available then that can be a wise choice.

However, for some purchases as David points out, if carefully checked out or the price is really good, then used will provide a perfectly viable piece of equipment even if new or updated items are still available.

And, of course for classic equipment there is no other choice.

Also, as soon as you start to use your new equipment then it becomes 'used' anyway.

 

[ray*j*gun]

Sure Leica will charge a high price but there are other good techs that will do the job for a reasonable number.....I know there is a thread or three on this forum that has contact info etc.

And Chris I agree 1000%..... I saw an ad this morning with the same wording.... erratic high shutter speeds after a recent service???? Yikes.

 

[ray*j*gun]

Hi,

It's a good reason but I wonder where I can buy new cameras that take film; apart from the obvious that would cost more than my car.

My solution is to buy good looking cameras and check them myself as much as possible, then get them sorted out by technicians I trust. I just wish they had apprentices...

Regards, David

I agree with you David.... looking at my equipment there is only one camera body that I bough new and they all perform beautifully....same with my glass.

 

[lam]

Wait, a CLA just isn't filler that belongs in a title? Like *RARE* and *LOOK*?

Drat.

 

[Timmyjoe]

Um, yeah, CLA doesn't have "rebuild" in it.

Typically just an "open up as far as needed, some lubrication, some cleaning if needed" and put it back together.

Certainly not a rebuild. Not for only a couple hundred dollars.

So Vick, you used to service cameras?

We called it a Clean, Lube and Adjust. Because you took it apart so you could Clean it, then put it back together with factory Lubricants, and then Adjusted it to factory specs. Ergo the name, Clean, Lube and Adjust.

How exactly would you plan on Cleaning a lens if you didn't take it apart? The dust inside a lens, between the cemented elements, cannot be Cleaned unless the lens is taken apart. The threads of the focusing mechanism cannot be properly Lubricated unless the lens is taken apart. You could adjust the lens to a certain extent without taking it apart, if it is close to spec to begin with.

Best,
-Tim

 

[icebear]

Getting a new or at least NOS M3, M2, M4 might be a little difficult these days 😀.

Honestly apart from timing issues (several delays before the work was finally completed) I have not had any issues with repairs of either bodies or lenses by Leica/NJ. That includes a MP finder update on an M6 and CLA at that point of time and also lens updates 6-bit coding and adjustment to M9 body. Everything was spanking clean afterwards and this is not only outside but inside as well as far as I can tell from looking through the lenses...

I also had 2 lenses CLA'd by Sherry K. and she gave them the "full shower"😉.
As good as new in my book.

 

[Roger Hicks]

No, I don't think it has changed. What you describe is the big difference between "strip, clean and overhaul" (the traditional UK usage) and "clean, lubricate and adjust" (an increasingly common American usage). The former is a lot more demanding and descriptive. The latter can cover -- well, pretty much anything. In the UK in the 1980s stories were told of one repairer (I forget who) whose "CLA" consisted of hosing out the works of cameras with a syringe full of aggressive volatile solvent. This would be done once or twice with pure solvent, then the last time with solvent plus a very small amount of oil, the theory being that capillary action would draw the solvent/oil mixture to the bearings where the solvent would evaporate leaving just the right amount of oil.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Tzelet]

I've noticed a lot of people selling cameras here in the classifieds that the sellers say were recently serviced or CLA'd, then they'll go one to say something like "High shutter speeds are erratic" or "Just a little fungus inside the lens" or some other major defect that the CLA should have fixed. Who the heck sends a camera off for service and accepts it back without it working right? Seems like a waste of money to me.

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

 

[Vobluda]

There is a huge difference in motion picture cameras and lenses and still picture cameras and lenses: from costs to usage to technologies to final results. Two different worlds, I dont think that it is possible to compare.

 

[Timmyjoe]

No, I don't think it has changed. What you describe is the big difference between "strip, clean and overhaul" (the traditional UK usage) and "clean, lubricate and adjust" (an increasingly common American usage). The former is a lot more demanding and descriptive. The latter can cover -- well, pretty much anything.

Hi Roger,

The reason I mentioned in my original post that I serviced Arriflex motion picture cameras and lenses is because, like Leica, ARRI is a German camera and lens manufacturer. The folks I used to service these German motion picture cameras with, we all called a complete overhaul a CLA. Because the only way to get the camera and lens clean, was to take it completely apart. The only way to properly lubricate everything, was to take it completely apart. And particularly with the cameras, the only way to properly adjust everything, was to take them completely apart.

Now there were service shops who undercut us who offered CLA's where they would just wipe down the camera, squirt in some lube, and check the FFD and call it a day. But that is not how I was trained in Arriflex motion picture camera repair. And I am shocked that a German camera company (I was talking with a Leica factory service person), which used to call a CLA what I described above, is now calling a "dirt and squirt" (wipe off the dirt, squirt in some lube) a CLA.

If it was some private shop, I would have had a different reaction, because any shop can call anything, well, whatever they want to call it. But for the Leica factory to call a CLA basically a "wipe down the outside, apply some lube, and check focus", that is what I found shocking.

Best,
-Tim

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Tim,

I fully take your point, and I very much like the phrase "dirt and squirt" which I shall adopt forthwith; but I still can't help thinking that it's worth distinguishing between a "CLA" and a strip, clean and overhaul. Of course a GOOD CLA can amount to a strip, clean and overhaul, but the absence of "strip" and "overhaul" in "CLA" gives far too much wriggle room. From Leicaphilia on my site, http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/leicaphilia.html

The main reason I said that the biggest enemy of old Leicas is arguably lack of use is that there is another candidate: the so-called 'CLA' or 'clean, lubricate and adjust'. At best, a CLA consists of a true strip, clean and overhaul: take the camera to pieces, remove all old lubricants and dirt, replace any worn parts, and reassemble. This is an understandably expensive undertaking, but if the parts are available, the camera may literally be restored to 'as new' condition.

Most people, though, are unwilling to pay a skilled repairer the kind of money that is required to do a full strip, clean and overhaul, and as a result, at the other end of the scale, a 'CLA' may consist of nothing more than pulling the works out of the body; sluicing them out with a fairly aggressive solvent, which removes most but not all of the old lubricants and dirt; squirting lots of (often unsuitable) lubricant in; then reassembling and adjusting the shutter tension to give more or less correct speeds. This may involve winding the tension up quite high in order to overcome the residual stickiness of the imperfectly swilled out old lubricants. Understandably, the camera then wears faster than before, and goes out of adjustment sooner.

It is a tribute to the build quality of old Leicas that they can withstand this sort of abuse, but the simple truth is that it is often better to send an old Leica to a reputable repairer for a straightforward repair of a known fault than to commission a so-called 'CLA' from one of the cheaper repairers. A good repairer will often do as much 'mucking out' as a low-grade CLA, but rather more skilfully, and the camera won't come back soaked with oil and smelling like a refinery.

I really don't think you can blame Leica too much for distinguishing between a CLA (minor service and clean up) and a full strip clean and overhaul to the standard that you or I might expect.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Moto-Uno]

So it's not just the motorcycle industry that has "service discrepancies".
Strangely enough,the price doesn't always reflect the quality. Here on the wet
coast we have a very large showy dealership that now only hires service staff
on a part time basis (says so on their website) !

 

[goamules]

Maybe the automotive terms "tuneup" versus "detailing" are descriptive of Overhaul versus CLA. I've sent 2 Leicas and one LF shutter to 4 different, well known repair persons for CLAs. Only the one Leica I sent to DAG came back perfectly overhauled. The wind was smooth as silk, the prisms and viewfinders clean, the shutter speeds perfect. I could tell he disassembled it and did proper Corrective and Preventative Maintenance (Navy terms). And he even CLEANed the outside! All for the going price of a so called CLA.