adji_jo
Member
It's a question I've been struggling with for quite a while and I think it will remain a question mark until my last release of a shutter.
We all know the importance of composition, moments etc but let's take off our 'photographer' hats and put on our honest badge for a moment. Do we really approach a shot being aware of the philosophy that make up our subject and try to capture it? Or, is it the case that reasoning is a process that comes after one sits down looking at his own work? sooner or later, you would have to explain why you took the picture and you have to be able to justify it.
For me, I see what I see, I shot what I saw, and reasoning comes later... What do you guys think?
I hope that's not too abstract a question.
We all know the importance of composition, moments etc but let's take off our 'photographer' hats and put on our honest badge for a moment. Do we really approach a shot being aware of the philosophy that make up our subject and try to capture it? Or, is it the case that reasoning is a process that comes after one sits down looking at his own work? sooner or later, you would have to explain why you took the picture and you have to be able to justify it.
For me, I see what I see, I shot what I saw, and reasoning comes later... What do you guys think?
I hope that's not too abstract a question.
stefan_dinu
Established
It is different from picture to picture in my case. There are some for which I give a lot of thinking and anticipating. Others when I shoot for some reason, and later I find another reason to like it. But most of the pictures that I like are not that elaborate but rather instinctual. I think this is the biggest gain of experience and the biggest advantage of using just one camera and one lens.
kkdanamatt
Well-known
Too much thought is dangerous, sometimes.
Too much thought is dangerous, sometimes.
Photography can be approached from a complex philosophical viewpoint, or it can simply exist as a form of free expression that requires little forethought or afterthought. I agree with Gary Winogrand: (paraphrasing) "I photograph to see what something looks like as a picture."
Too much thought is dangerous, sometimes.
Photography can be approached from a complex philosophical viewpoint, or it can simply exist as a form of free expression that requires little forethought or afterthought. I agree with Gary Winogrand: (paraphrasing) "I photograph to see what something looks like as a picture."
oftheherd
Veteran
I am as Stefan Dinu said. For me there are times when I study for a while, or even a long while, how I want a a scene to look as a photo. Other times I recognize something I see as a good photo and hasten to photograph it. Still other times I photograph somehing, not sure or perhaps not even aware of what I am after. Later, I can look and decide if I got it or not, and why it works.
Sadly, there are too many times when I thought I had something, but can't find any redeeming value in my photo.
Sadly, there are too many times when I thought I had something, but can't find any redeeming value in my photo.
Nh3
Well-known
Photography is like Jazz. You don't play for a reason, you just play.
bmattock
Veteran
I think that my 'reasoning' is taking place even when (perhaps especially when) I am not conscious of it.
Took this Friday night:
Something about modernity, something about irony, and of course, I happened to be in a shopping mall with my wife and had only a pocket point-n-shoot with which to try to capture the photo.
Philosophy? Could be. Maybe just another sarcastic commentary on society, religion, or something else entirely. Maybe it is just a bad snapshot. Whatever it may be, I saw something interesting and took the photo.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
I believe that photography is very prone to overanalysis. If you think too much, you end up in the middle of the road just like everyone else. You listen to too much public critique and you end doing work that is what the mainstream expects.
This is art not science. You have to follow your gut instincts.
We must forever be careful not to fall into the trap of making perfect photographs that are perfectly boring. Thinking too much will do that to you.
This is art not science. You have to follow your gut instincts.
We must forever be careful not to fall into the trap of making perfect photographs that are perfectly boring. Thinking too much will do that to you.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Its like golf
Its like golf
I had a golf coach long ago that said to practice mindfully and with some intention in mind. But when I went out on the course, just hit the ball and go find it!
Photography for me is the same. I love studying the photography of the great photographers and all the words written about/by them. I love taking photography courses and participating in photo critique groups. But I know d**med well that my best photographs are made when I just go out there and respond to the world. Its too late to do much thinking at that point. Its time then to just trust "muscle memory".
Its like golf
I had a golf coach long ago that said to practice mindfully and with some intention in mind. But when I went out on the course, just hit the ball and go find it!
Photography for me is the same. I love studying the photography of the great photographers and all the words written about/by them. I love taking photography courses and participating in photo critique groups. But I know d**med well that my best photographs are made when I just go out there and respond to the world. Its too late to do much thinking at that point. Its time then to just trust "muscle memory".
Often the conscious reason comes later, in editing and processing. At least for my better pics, there's something there in the image that -at the time of exposure- was subconscious, instinctual. I then recognize it later, and enhance it through a bit of cropping or other processing.
I may have a hint of it at the time of exposure, or not. Sometimes I'll get a decent shot through careful planned composition, but these are often predictable and a little boring.
If I put down my cameras for a couple years, then getting back into it the instinct takes a while to come back.
I may have a hint of it at the time of exposure, or not. Sometimes I'll get a decent shot through careful planned composition, but these are often predictable and a little boring.
If I put down my cameras for a couple years, then getting back into it the instinct takes a while to come back.
adji_jo
Member
It's really good to read what other people think. As a Jazz lover and an ex-golf freak I can relate to Nh3 and Jamie Pillers...
I'll probably take most people's advice here and try not to think too much of it. cheers fellas
I'll probably take most people's advice here and try not to think too much of it. cheers fellas
icebear
Veteran
I'm usually trying to frame to a somewhat ok composition - if I've time to. Sometimes I'll try to grap that moment at all and sometimes I grind my teeth that didn't see it coming and reacted too slow or not at all. Like some African American women in Central park 2-3 weeks ago carrying a paper in her arm folded that the headline was readable "CHANGE". Some need more opportunities than others ...
Some pictures turn out completely useless, no message and I ask myself "why did I press the shutter?!"... and out it goes into the garbage. Not too much thinking about it.
Some pictures turn out completely useless, no message and I ask myself "why did I press the shutter?!"... and out it goes into the garbage. Not too much thinking about it.
Bike Tourist
Well-known
If you make photographs professionally, you can "justify" the activity as providing you with a living, but it might not turn out to be very satisfying.
If you don't derive your living from it, you can shoot without a reason and enjoy that part of your life. You can be an easy or a severe critic of your work and take it wherever you want to go.
Maybe that's another way of saying no one cares!
If you don't derive your living from it, you can shoot without a reason and enjoy that part of your life. You can be an easy or a severe critic of your work and take it wherever you want to go.
Maybe that's another way of saying no one cares!
kevin m
Veteran
Michael Jordan, who's not a photographer as far as I know, made a remark that I think can be applied to photography nonetheless. He said if you work hard in practice then the game itself will be fun. Makes some sense, I think. If you do all the grunt work ahead of time - all the requisite learning of your gear - then you can concentrate on the task when the time comes and put your attention there rather than sweating the operation of your gear.
I was listening to an interview with the well-known wedding photographer, Joe Buissink, the other day and he said he keeps his gear choices really simple (he said he mostly shoots in "P for 'professional'" mode ) and concentrates on capturing emotional moments during the wedding day. He said that he practices even without a camera in his hand by paying attention whenever he's out in public to those emotional moments he sees around him and saying a silent "now" to himself when he would fire the shutter. Sounds corny, but the results speak for themselves: http://www.joebuissink.com/
I was listening to an interview with the well-known wedding photographer, Joe Buissink, the other day and he said he keeps his gear choices really simple (he said he mostly shoots in "P for 'professional'" mode
) and concentrates on capturing emotional moments during the wedding day. He said that he practices even without a camera in his hand by paying attention whenever he's out in public to those emotional moments he sees around him and saying a silent "now" to himself when he would fire the shutter. Sounds corny, but the results speak for themselves: http://www.joebuissink.com/phc
Paul Hardy Carter
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, or 'Brenda' to you and I and all readers of Private Eye, apparently has a self imposed guideline that she sticks to when confronted by criticism: Never complain, never explain. I think that's a pretty good maxim to apply to my work, too.
I pressed the shutter because it felt right, and then I either select the resultant picture because I like it, or I reject it because I don't. I don't feel further explanation is necessary.
On the other hand I'll happily chat about pictures all day (in fact I've been doing that all day today for the book I'm working on), I just can't be bothered with post-rationalisation. That's why God invented critics.
Cheers, P.
I pressed the shutter because it felt right, and then I either select the resultant picture because I like it, or I reject it because I don't. I don't feel further explanation is necessary.
On the other hand I'll happily chat about pictures all day (in fact I've been doing that all day today for the book I'm working on), I just can't be bothered with post-rationalisation. That's why God invented critics.
Cheers, P.
kevin m
Veteran
That dictum is a good one, but it's attributed to Henry Ford II.
Carlsen Highway
Well-known
NH3 answer is the one that connects for me - photography is like jazz indeed.
(unless you are talking about set up creations; in which case all rules of figurative painting apply rather- but then not all jazz is improvisation either...)
As such - free impovisation on reality as it were - it will be informed, created by your own personally held philosophies anyway, being as how that IS you rather than something you adopt and gloss over the top of how you take your picture...
You can think all you like beforehand and afterwards, but when you rtaking pictures it is instinctive - you have to rely on your instictive (trained) ability to compose for example - how many times have you taken off the cuff grabbed shots and found that you get perfectly acceptable compisitions...you train yourself through practicing your craft, so that when it counts in a split second, you have your technical expertise available unconciously, and also your worldview or philisophy is through everything, becasue without it your wouldnt have seen the photo in the first place.
The answer is therefor yes and no. This applies to many activities I believe - from drawing, playing golf, to snap shooting deer in the forest.
Do you know the feeling when you KNOW when to trip the shutter - but you dont know why - NOW -
The mechanics are fascinating really, becasue your talking about the mechanics of the mind on the level of functioning as a craft and problem solving, and also the creative mind.
Sometimes you work with the front part of your brain - you have to get that shot before the light moves off the subject...and sometimes your subconcious throws up solutions or signals which cannot be premedetated but rather come from contstand practice and considering of what you are doing. Photography is all bout the time that you spend THINKING about it as well - not just when you are walking with a camera in your hand.
When the deer jumps, you have to recognise it, and when you do - you recognise it a certain way becasue of the thougth and reasoning that has gone before.
(unless you are talking about set up creations; in which case all rules of figurative painting apply rather- but then not all jazz is improvisation either...)
As such - free impovisation on reality as it were - it will be informed, created by your own personally held philosophies anyway, being as how that IS you rather than something you adopt and gloss over the top of how you take your picture...
You can think all you like beforehand and afterwards, but when you rtaking pictures it is instinctive - you have to rely on your instictive (trained) ability to compose for example - how many times have you taken off the cuff grabbed shots and found that you get perfectly acceptable compisitions...you train yourself through practicing your craft, so that when it counts in a split second, you have your technical expertise available unconciously, and also your worldview or philisophy is through everything, becasue without it your wouldnt have seen the photo in the first place.
The answer is therefor yes and no. This applies to many activities I believe - from drawing, playing golf, to snap shooting deer in the forest.
Do you know the feeling when you KNOW when to trip the shutter - but you dont know why - NOW -
The mechanics are fascinating really, becasue your talking about the mechanics of the mind on the level of functioning as a craft and problem solving, and also the creative mind.
Sometimes you work with the front part of your brain - you have to get that shot before the light moves off the subject...and sometimes your subconcious throws up solutions or signals which cannot be premedetated but rather come from contstand practice and considering of what you are doing. Photography is all bout the time that you spend THINKING about it as well - not just when you are walking with a camera in your hand.
When the deer jumps, you have to recognise it, and when you do - you recognise it a certain way becasue of the thougth and reasoning that has gone before.
williams473
Well-known
I actually don't think photography is a very expressive medium and have given up trying to use it as such - jazz certainly is - I'd agree with that. But photography is not as expressive as music, painting or dance because the tools we have to work with are less flexible, and we are working among a drowning prolifetration of images used for a variety of other purposes.
Photography imposes much more than an expressive art does. It can't adjust to the situation or mood like a jazz musician can, because the "performance" of photography is not in the making of the photograph, but in the viewing of it.
Lately, I've stopped trying express myself so much, and be more of a photographer ala "filmmaker" - I'm trying to put together projects to shoot that will (hopefully) engage viewers and interest them, while maintaining a high level of personal vision and artistic integrity. Since I'm an amateur, I can get away with this approach. Hopefully, the work will stand independant of the viewer's understanding of me, or how fulfilling (or not) it was to shoot the work.
Photography imposes much more than an expressive art does. It can't adjust to the situation or mood like a jazz musician can, because the "performance" of photography is not in the making of the photograph, but in the viewing of it.
Lately, I've stopped trying express myself so much, and be more of a photographer ala "filmmaker" - I'm trying to put together projects to shoot that will (hopefully) engage viewers and interest them, while maintaining a high level of personal vision and artistic integrity. Since I'm an amateur, I can get away with this approach. Hopefully, the work will stand independant of the viewer's understanding of me, or how fulfilling (or not) it was to shoot the work.
Praxis Unitas
Established
Excellent insights...
Excellent insights...
That's a wonderful description! I gave up my dreams of opening a recording studio when I realized that I would be limited in my expression as an engineer/producer. Photography was an excellent step up for me. However, I've found that a few of my best shots are ones where I influenced the subject's reaction. In that regard, evocation of the emotions caught in an image can be a mechanism for a photographer's own expression. After all, isn't a great deal of art about the human condition? Besides, it's fun, less predictable than a paint brush, and sometimes more ephemeral than a canvas!
Take care!
Excellent insights...
That's a wonderful description! I gave up my dreams of opening a recording studio when I realized that I would be limited in my expression as an engineer/producer. Photography was an excellent step up for me. However, I've found that a few of my best shots are ones where I influenced the subject's reaction. In that regard, evocation of the emotions caught in an image can be a mechanism for a photographer's own expression. After all, isn't a great deal of art about the human condition? Besides, it's fun, less predictable than a paint brush, and sometimes more ephemeral than a canvas!
Take care!
aniMal
Well-known
The process is rather obscure with me... Some of the pictures I just KNOW are good, just appear there before me.
When I am in the ´zone´ I am able to catch them - and afterwards I can sometimes explain them, but not always...
It is instinct and subconscious - art if you will. For me at least, that is...
When I am in the ´zone´ I am able to catch them - and afterwards I can sometimes explain them, but not always...
It is instinct and subconscious - art if you will. For me at least, that is...
Nh3
Well-known
The last time I posted in this thread I said photography is like Jazz, you just play and there are no inherent reason as to why.
But that was a simplistic answer. Why do we really photograph, for what purpose and for what end? This is strictly in the case of those who don't make money of their photography.
Maybe, photography is the ultimate escape from one's own reality, one's own "condition". Perhaps its a release from our own psychology and a way to feel lost for a moment and forget about our own existence. This is what Winogrand said as well, "when I photograph that's when I come closest to not existing".
In the case of street photographers it could be a sense of gaining power over other people in the street, a way to exercise one's own will to power. In the case of those drawn to landscape it could be a need for solitude and reflection... And in some cases it could simply be a case of role-playing. Playing the part of a photographer.
Anyway, I still don't know the answer.
But that was a simplistic answer. Why do we really photograph, for what purpose and for what end? This is strictly in the case of those who don't make money of their photography.
Maybe, photography is the ultimate escape from one's own reality, one's own "condition". Perhaps its a release from our own psychology and a way to feel lost for a moment and forget about our own existence. This is what Winogrand said as well, "when I photograph that's when I come closest to not existing".
In the case of street photographers it could be a sense of gaining power over other people in the street, a way to exercise one's own will to power. In the case of those drawn to landscape it could be a need for solitude and reflection... And in some cases it could simply be a case of role-playing. Playing the part of a photographer.
Anyway, I still don't know the answer.