When expired film gives bad results

[ellisson]

I have kept my film in a refrigerator, but during a move most of it was packed in boxes, some of which escaped my notice when unpacking.

Many Tmax and TriX rolls range from 1 to 4 years past the expiration date. A recent roll of Tmax400 that was 3 years past expiration was developed according to recommended temp and time, but looks weird. The negatives have more than the usual purple tinge and the grey spectrum seems extremely narrow and contrasty. Is this a finding typical for expired film? What abnormalities are seen when film has expired?

 

[f16sunshine]

It sounds like film that requires some more fixing time.
Tmax is especially taxing on fixer. Was your fixer fresh and did you go for anout 10mins at 20c with generous agitation ?

 

[Ned Bojic]

Yes, more fixing.

 

[Drago]

They should be fine. Generally past 5 - 10 years they start to loose some sensitivity, so you should rate them lower when you meter. If not stored in right conditions you could see some foggy negatives too.

 

[ellisson]

They should be fine. Generally past 5 - 10 years they start to loose some sensitivity, so you should rate them lower when you meter. If not stored in right conditions you could see some foggy negatives too.

Foggy is a good descriptor for what I see. Its like looking through a haze, apparent as soon as I hung the negatives to dry. Purple haze.

The fixer was ilford, which I left out overnight covered with foil after preparing it. Probably would do better in air-tight container, but I have been doing this for a while with no adverse effects. It had only been used for another two rolls of 35mm.

 

[ellisson]

It sounds like film that requires some more fixing time.
Tmax is especially taxing on fixer. Was your fixer fresh and did you go for anout 10mins at 20c with generous agitation ?

Thanks, Andy. I usually use the recommended times, but the fixer was left out overnight.

 

[znapper]

Why don't you just keep your fixer in a bottle, it can be re-used you know. =)

 

[ellisson]

Why don't you just keep your fixer in a bottle, it can be re-used you know. =)

Yes, this is the better way to store when re-using. Keeping it in a graduated cylinder with foil atop is not ideal.

 

[f16sunshine]

Fixer is effected by air but not in the same way as developer. Said plainly,..Exhausted fixer just can't "hold" any more silver.
Tmax is just particularly difficult to fix.
The way I visualize it for myself is, the undeveloped silver halide does not like to "let go". I just tend to go 10mins at a minimum where 5 mins work for other non t-grain films.
The purple layer in tmax is a good tell. If the film is still really purple..... One must Fix longer.

 

[gsgary]

This is Tmax100 expired in 1996 shot at iso400 because i thought i was shooting HP5, developed in rodinal for 1 hour

 

[ellisson]

Fixer is effected by air but not in the same way as developer. Said plainly,..Exhausted fixer just can't "hold" any more silver.
Tmax is just particularly difficult to fix.
The way I visualize it for myself is, the undeveloped silver halide does not like to "let go". I just tend to go 10mins at a minimum where 5 mins work for other non t-grain films.
The purple layer in tmax is a good tell. If the film is still really purple..... One must Fix longer.

Interesting that Tmax has been the problem film for me. This looks like the reason. But now I see how to "fix" the problem!

 

[Nokton48]

Put the fix in a two-liter soda bottle

 

[znapper]

Yeah, soda bottles are actually the best I've used.
- You can see when the silver starts to muddy the edge of the bottle, so you know when to change it.
- Cost nothing
- Almost always available everywhere.
- You can get the size you want.
- In my country we get 1 eurocent per bottle when we deliver it back to the grocery-stores ^^

Accordion-bottles are the worst for fixer, the fallout will gather in the folds inside the bottle and come loose as flakes, as the bottle ages.

 

[ellisson]

Yeah, soda bottles are actually the best I've used.
- You can see when the silver starts to muddy the edge of the bottle, so you know when to change it.
- Cost nothing
- Almost always available everywhere.
- You can get the size you want.
- In my country we get 1 eurocent per bottle when we deliver it back to the grocery-stores ^^

Accordion-bottles are the worst for fixer, the fallout will gather in the folds inside the bottle and come loose as flakes, as the bottle ages.

These tips are really helpful. I like the soda bottle storage - cheap and informative re: fixer status.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

These tips are really helpful. I like the soda bottle storage - cheap and informative re: fixer status.

It's what I've been doing for years. You can bleed every last bit of air out by cracking the cap open enough to squeeze the air out. This helps chems last well. Ilford recommend, from memory, using their ID-11 within six months after mixing, I once went a year (or very nearly) and it was just fine.

A few weeks ago I accidentally fixed some films with a two year old bottle of Ilford Rapid Fixer, stored as above. Picked up an old bottle by accident instead of the fresh batch. I realised half way through but the films fixed beautifully. I always do a clearing test and adjust time to suit, and never approach Ilford's recommended maximum number of films fixed per litre, so I wouldn't have expected too many problems, but it was still encouraging to see that long term storage in a 2 litre Pepsi bottle had not impacted its effectiveness to any noticeable extent.

I have read that soda bottles are not ideal because they can permit atmospheric contamination of the contents (or something like that). What I do know is I've been storing ID-11 and fixer in them for five years and haven't ever had an issue, personally. The one thing I would suggest, because the bottles are clear, is to simply store them in a dark place when not in use. Mine are either in the laundry cupboard or a 50 litre black plastic storage tub, and haven't failed me yet. I also agree with the other comments. If your films are still pink/purple, re-fix them in fresh fixer and generous rinsing. The latter will also help to remove any anti-halation dye.

Lastly, if you shoot any 35mm, hang on to the leader ends after loading your reels. I trim them down into two or three small strips and pop them into spare 35mm film containers sorted according to film type. Then, whenever I am developing a particular film, all I need to do is to grab a strip of the same film, spot it with a drop of fixer and let it work for a minute before dropping it into a small jug of fixer and timing how long it takes to clear. This will both inform the needed time for your films in the fixer, and, by noting the original clearing time of film in fresh fixer, informs you as to the effectiveness of your fix and when it is spent (Ilford suggest twice the clearing time of freshly mixed fixer as a guide for when to replace it). I believe I read the above method in one of Roger's and Frances's books originally, and it is a very easy and effective way of ensuring adequate fixing at all times.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[ellisson]

Many thanks, Brett and others. I've been developing film (35mm and medium format) for many years, but have not been storing solutions well. This helps to explain some of the variable results I get with negative quality. In a way its good news: there is room for improvement!

 

[ellisson]

Putting the negatives back in fixer for an additional 7 minutes totally cleared the purple haze. Now they are usable. Thanks to all.