Where do you buy a good user folder?

Jurgen... good deals here for me... 3 times....

Jurgen... good deals here for me... 3 times....

Purchased a nice Hapo 66E from him (balda baldax branded for Hans Porshe german department store). Great 6X6 with a sharp contrasty lens (Enna Werke) and accurate coupled rangefinder.
He then installed a new bellows in one of my Mamiya 6 folders. Did a good job. Also purchased another folder from him.

Regarding his detractors....

I would be hard pressed to try to make a living trying to make 50 to 70 year old cameras function well, considering how badly some of them were built to begin with.

My best experiences have been with Voightlander Bessa and Perkeo, Balda, Franka, Mamiya folders, and I would think Zeiss Ikon to be highly rated.

Agfa... bad bellows material repeatedly blamed for problems. etc.

Would never consider any of the Russian, or Chinese folders, perhaps unfairly, but......
 
kuzano said:
Purchased a nice Hapo 66E from him (balda baldax branded for Hans Porshe german department store). Great 6X6 with a sharp contrasty lens (Enna Werke) and accurate coupled rangefinder.
He then installed a new bellows in one of my Mamiya 6 folders. Did a good job. Also purchased another folder from him.

Regarding his detractors....

I would be hard pressed to try to make a living trying to make 50 to 70 year old cameras function well, considering how badly some of them were built to begin with.

My best experiences have been with Voightlander Bessa and Perkeo, Balda, Franka, Mamiya folders, and I would think Zeiss Ikon to be highly rated.

Agfa... bad bellows material repeatedly blamed for problems. etc.
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It's good to hear that your experiences with him have been positive.


kuzano said:
Would never consider any of the Russian, or Chinese folders, perhaps unfairly, but......
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Since you would "never consider" them, it's fair to say you haven't tried them? 😉 I definitely prefer the fit and finish my Super Ikontas but wouldn't knock the Russian copies, especially without trying.
 
chippy said:
you could easily do just fine buying from him, he buys them and flips them (thats his business, fine), many of the cameras are probably working OK to begin with so you may get a good working camera from him, albeit at a higher price..others have some problem or other and you have to hope he has fixed it correctly, no doubt some are fixed ok but plenty are not. i have had camera from him with all manner of glaring problems that were evident at first glance by me but he professed were checked over by him, closely, which leads me to wonder how that can be true and then happen over and over again..

frozen stuck solid RF (just never serviced or touched at all) multiple camera with pin holes in bellows even though he claims they were checked by him professionally, other bellows with 1-2cm rips in them! how can you miss them! you cant is the answer, many other issues, shutter issues etc

speaking of bellows, here is an example from him of his bellows replacement work..this camera purchased from him had many pin holes in the bellows, even though he specifically said they were good, camera was returned to him with pin holed bellows removed (couldn't be resold that way). he installed these new bellows and put the camera up on ebay within a couple of days, the new buyer asked me about what was wrong with his camera, C6 was trying to convince him the camera was fine the way it was, it took the buyer a good deal of frustrating time arguing before he could return the camera

there is NO excuse for sending a camera out like this, its not the sort of thing that could be explained away as just an accident, not by someone that works on them as much as he does



test shot from buyer


so you can get a good camera from him, but you can get plenty of problems as well, not much different to buying from any other random ebay seller. if you are after something original though you need to take extra care if you purchase from him as body, lens, shutter combinations can often be not as they were sold when new. which undermines the value of the camera , it takes a little something away from the fun of using it IMO too, knowing its not quite original
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This seems to be a common thread over the past few years... I've considered using him a few times but always been scared away by stories like this. The repair places I use have a very very low failure/defect rate, it's just too expensive and too annoying wasting film to have it any other way. If it was a pig-in-a-poke poorly serviced camera I wanted, I'd do it myself. Thanks for the detailed well documented post.
 
Brian Legge said:
I'm officially frustrated. I've had a heck of a time finding a decent folder.
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The first folder I purchased, an Ercona II (6x9 no rangefinder) was from ebay, from a chap in the UK. The photos of the camera in the ad looked fine and the price was low. It turned out to be a wonderful camera. With a Tessar lens it takes absolutely stunning photos. I sometimes use a separate rangefinder, the type that goes into the flash shoe, but mostly guessing distance works out ok. The seller claimed this had been serviced by Certo 6 although there was no proof.

The second folder I bought, a Franka Solida IIIe (uncoupled rangefinder) was from the RFF classifieds and was also in very good condition. It has a Schneider-Kreuznach Radionar lens that is not as sharp as the Tessar, but for that vintage look it's fine. With the built-in rangefinder this 6x6 folder is really compact and light - great to carry around.

So, unlike you I've had good luck with these two. I'll likely sell the Franka Solida soon as I much prefer a rectangular format of 6x9 or even 645.

One other point. I've noticed that many of these old folders go for over $400, but unless you really want an old folder, you could get something like the Fuji GS645 folder for not much more, and often with bellows replaced. Compact, built-in light meter, and much better lens. Don't give up on folders yet!

Steve
 
I would steer clear of Mr Certo. Too many people have had too many problems. It means something.

eBay, here, or sometimes KEH are good places to look for a folder. There's a couple of reasonably priced Ikontas at KEH right now that have rangefinders. Avoid the Russian cameras. Yes, some people love them, but just move on. Get a Voigtlander or a Zeiss Ikonta. Read the ads carefully and ask a lot of questions. KEH will take a return if the camera is faulty, so that's a BIG plus. Usually, a little lighter fluid will get the shutters up. I love old folders, and w/ a Heliar lens they're capable of images that are as good as you can get in photography. Folders are easy to adjust too, unless you have bent struts, and even that's probably fixable.

Spare parts? That's what you build yourself in the kitchen. If it were me I'd avoid the expensive cameras w/ rangefinders though. Get an aux rangefinder and buy a simple camera like a Voigtlander Bessa or an Inos w/ a Skopar lens. Those big 6x9 negs will make you forget all the hassles. And see if you can locate a reasonably priced shutter tester so you can ck the speeds. By their very nature, folders are DIY fixable cameras, but you want to get an uncomplicated one to begin with.

I like this shot a lot. It's from an early Voigtlander Inos 6x9 roll film camera that only had scale focus and a Heliar lens. I never should have sold this one. The thing didn't even have a pressure plate in it!!! The film just ran on the inside of the closed back.

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I went out, bought my own folder and then restored it myself. Occasionally, you get a dog. By and large, you'll get an old camera that needs to be overhauled.
 
I bought a Zeiss Super Ikonta III and a IV on Ebay. Both look beautiful and both worked. The III was overlapping a couple of frames at the end of the roll a little and needed a repair on the film transport and a CLA and now works beautifully. My Super Ikonta IV worked beautifully when I got it. I paid about $400.00 for each of them but I love using them both. I got the III repaired at Essex Camera Repair and they did a great job and turn around time was not long maybe 2 - 3 weeks. Essex website: http://essexcamera.com/
Jim
 
As with many questions posed on RFF, the answer lies partly in how you intend to use the cameras, the sort of photography you do.

I have bought well over a dozen folders, all on eBay, most from individuals. Only three had problems and at least one of those was from a photo store that should have known better -- ie they were not hidden problems requiring sophistication to catch.

But I bought largely Zeiss Ikons (for their reputation for greater rigidity and better structural longevity) and Kodaks (for various very specific reasons). Of the ZIs, I focused on the Nettars and Ikontas because they were simpler -- double exposure prevention mechanisms seem to get gummed up, rangefinders seem to bring their own problems, etc -- and also because those simpler cameras were less sought after and also way less expensive.

My concerns about using them w/o a focusing aid quickly disappeared when I saw they were largely outdoor cameras that I shot mostly for landscapes -- dead simple, then, to shoot using hyperfocal focusing, and only a little more complicated to use for zone focusing closer in. That's why I say it depends on what and how you shoot.

The simpler shutters, while being less convenient for exposure control under varied conditions bring the advantage of fewer problems and greater longevity.

6x9 brings the added advantage (over 6x6) that you can use 35mm auxiliary VFs (after appropriate conversion of focal length) if you don't like the ones they come with.

Good luck, know thyself, and may the force be with you (have I left out any cliche' I need to add?)

Giorgio
 
P C Headland said:
I've bought all mine on eBay or our local equivalent, TradeMe. I've only had one slightly iffy one, and that was a press camera that I bought from a UK seller while living in Europe. Other bits of that kit made up for the dodgy bellows.

If you buy from a reputable seller, you should be OK - Beedhams, Cupog, etc. You have to accept that you're unlikely to get a bargain this way. I'm sure some others here can suggest some decent sellers.

The other possibility is to wander round garage sale, junk stores, etc.
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So you're the bastárd who keeps outbidding me! 😛

I got a beautiful Agfa Record III for $45 on TradeMe. Was searching for ages for an Isolette and kept getting outbid... then the top of the line 6x9 (beats 6x6!) rangefinder equivalent comes along with a rubbish photo with $40 buy now. I snapped it up 10 minutes after it was listed. $5 postage and I had an incredibly good condition example, with Synchro Compur and the premium Solinar. Bellows light-tight too!

Sometimes you get lucky.

I know they're the dowdy and obvious choice, but the Agfa Isolette seems to be about the most solidly built of the lot, going from user reports on the net. My Record certainly seems very robust. The worst problems people normally have are poozed bellows (a certain range of Isolettes used plasticky bellows which get pinholes -- my Record has leather bellows, somebody told me the Isolettes with the Solinar have leather bellows, who knows), and a hard-to-turn helicoid. Both problems relatively easily solved.

Of course, the Isolette/Record either has no rangefinder, or if you get the III model, it has an uncoupled one.

In any case, do keep trying! You'll be rewarded when you do find a nice folder. Go for 6x9, you won't regret it! Still smaller than a lot of 35mm cameras. I love my folder, it was just about the perfect travel camera.
 
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How interesting to read so many people trashing all older folders. Granted there are some better than others, in original build quality as well as current condition of the better ones. But certainly there are good folders that were made well to begin with, and have often survived their aging process well.

I have a Zeiss Ikon 6x9 folder with a Novar lens that takes great photos. No RF so it is light and easy to carry. I have a couple of Welta 6x6 folders. They deliver great photos. I am surprised they don't get more mention. An old Fuji Six does well, and when I get around to fixing my Mamiya Six, from all reports, it will do well too. I have a bag style I use for my Kiev and my Contax 167mt. They both have a large front pocket, and one has a Welta, the other the Zeiss for when I think MF will be better than 35mm.

I don't claim them to be as good as My Super Press 23, but they give good enough photos I carry them and use them.

To any looking for folders, I guess maybe people like me got all the good cameras off ebay and there aren't any more left. Actually, I don't believe that. But always, you have to be careful, and just as importantly, patient. Also, know what you are looking at. I was lucky with both my Weltas and the Zeiss. They worked when bought and still do.

The Fuji required cleaning the shutter. The Mamiya needs springs for the RF. The Fuji didn't bother me. Many old cameras need the shutter flushed. The Mamiya was a diasppointment, but I got it for a very good price and it is fixable. Those things are to be expected from old cameras. As Chippy said, even the (by some) beloved Leicas still need CLAs as they age.

Bottom line? The old folders, in working condition are worth having. Just look at the threads of photos from them. Is every one from ebay or elsewhere going to be just as it was when it was delivered to the store? Don't expect that.
 
Thank you all of the info, I really appreciate it.

I'm definitely fine with a camera that needs some work. Patching/replacing bellows, cleaning the shutter, aligning the lens and rangefinders (if present)... I'm comfortable with all of those.

Dealing with struts which don't align and lock as they should... not so comfortable. I have a feeling some of those issues aren't all that repairable without a spare body.

So... any good place to pick up a Frank Solida IIIe body? 😉 I think the alignment was bad on this one at the point it was manufactured from the looks of it. I find it interesting that the only ones I see moving on ebay are advertised as complete working cameras. It seems like there has to be a bunch of parts bodies somewhere but I have no idea where to look other than ebay.
 
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Based on your post I bought that ugly super ikonta b. The price dropped to 133. How was the lens on yours. Any issues or tips?
I am familiar with 120 and folders just new to this model

Nik



QUOTE=MC JC86;1565609]KEH has a Super Ikonta B in ugly for $149.. Don't be deterred by the condition, I recently bought one of the same models from them in that condition and it arrived in great shape. If it had been sold on eBay it would have been sold as "excellent" not to mention, super-rare. I also use a Super Ikomat (super Ikonta A) that I found for $130.... The moskva 5 is a nice folder too but I've never gotten one that didn't need quite a bit of work before using. Once they're working though, the optics are among the best in MF RF folders.... First, decide which format you want, 6x9? 6x4.5? 6x6? (some, like the Moskva, are dual-format with masks) and go from there.

It's not hard to get a working folder, just gotta look and figure out exactly what you want. I'd say the most important thing to make sure of, once you figure out which model you may want, is that the bellows are good since they're difficult to replace unless you're a DIYer. Also that the halfmirror isn't desilvered... Most other parts are serviceable by competent techs... I use ESSEX for my folders. Good luck, don't give up, the results are well worth the time you spend..





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Super Ikomat (ZI Super Ikonta A) Shooter 6x4.5cm

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Russian Moskva 5 Super Ikonta copy (shoots 6x9cm)[/QUOTE]
 
The lens was great, free of haze or fungus and produces awesome images. I'd do the "flashlight" check with yours assuming all other functions seem to be working properly. Let me know! Hope it wasn't bad advice.
 
Brian My personal preference is the Ikonta III or the Mess Ikonta. Both 6x6 folders. If you ever get down to Portland check out Hollywood Camera on Sandy Blvd. there is normally a reasonably priced selection of both 6x6 and 6x4.5 folders as well as tlr's and whatnot.
 
MC JC86 said:
The lens was great, free of haze or fungus and produces awesome images. I'd do the "flashlight" check with yours assuming all other functions seem to be working properly. Let me know! Hope it wasn't bad advice.
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Any tips for loading? From what I understand from the manual. Cock the shutter hold down the shutter release after firing push down advance counter and rotate past 11 then the wind knob should rotate freely for loading leader onto take up spool. Then close back wind on until 1 appears in window and then set counter to one Then it is ready to shoot.
Correct?
Thanks for your help. I've enjoyed my isolette and ercona But miss having a rangefinder. I had a Moskva 5 that I ended up trading for a tachihara. I couldn't get a sharp picture out of it. The rangefinder and front standard were misaligned. I really wanted to love it though

Nik
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
The problem is folders have not been made, with a few exceptions like the ultra-costly Fuji 6x7 that is still made, in 50 yrs. They're old and mostly worn out, because most were not pro cameras, they were made for amateur use, meaning they were not made to last forever. Most need the shutter CLAd, the bellows replaced, and the RF adjusted if the camera has one. I looked at a lot of them and gave up, never bought one.
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This may be true, but there are some folders out there that are, while old - pre-war, can still be in pretty good shape and deliver great results.:

welturs by krosyagms, on Flickr

I love my Welturs - having had many folders I settled with these. Sure I did do some minor work on them, but this to be expected on most of them anyway. But I think they deliver far more that one may expect:

knoght.jpg
 
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