PKR
Veteran
I tried a similar thing here once. I didn't have many takers. People are afraid to be wrong. I try to figure out the lighting in photos all the time. It's fun.
Where does "looks like flash" come from? Anyone ever compared flash vs continuous?
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I tried a similar thing here once. I didn't have many takers. People are afraid to be wrong. I try to figure out the lighting in photos all the time. It's fun.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
PKR
Veteran
I think the square wave stuff began being used in the mid 90s here. My favorite shop is an Arri dealer, but no really big stuff. I see a lot of huge LED arrays being used now. Much less heat and power savings. I only see HMI when on a film set. There is only one local big lighting rental here for the motion picture biz. Most is trucked in from a bigger city. My pal in the generator business has two big units at $250k each. A big investment.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
IMO, those two has quality of been naturally lighted. It feels like natural light.
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=106502&d=1505304197
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=106511&d=1505304409
The rest feels as not so natural with each light schema signing its own song.
Sorry for the wrong answer. I'm not studio guy.
x-ray
Veteran
KoFe it's just an exercise to see if there's really any difference in tungsten and strobe. There's a pretty even mix of tungsten and strobe here as well as several film vs digital. Also one is shot with a D1x and some with a 1DsII and one with a 1Ds. Others are Nikon D800 of Df. Also one with a Hasselblad digital back.
PKR is pretty close but I have a feeling he's looking at specular highlights.
PKR is pretty close but I have a feeling he's looking at specular highlights.
Bill Clark
Veteran
It's about controlled light. It can be found most anywhere. It can be duplicated with a flash and proper placement.
On-camera flash looks like deer in highlights. It's not flattering. Light color can be changed during the process stage, however; I believe it's best to get it right when capturing the photograph.
Mixing different light temperatures has its own set of issues. For example, using a flash outdoors during daylight.
I always used off-camera flash with pocket wizards.
Light modifiers is another subject.
Window light is fine if it's high enough, controlled.
Outdoors time of day and direction should be considered in your lighting recipe.
Here is some info on lighting of the human face:
https://digital-photography-school.com/6-portrait-lighting-patterns-every-photographer-should-know/
Video by Monte:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qoLlA1wMYuI
Lighting is a very important ingredient with photography. It can elevate a photograph from snapshot to something creative.
On-camera flash looks like deer in highlights. It's not flattering. Light color can be changed during the process stage, however; I believe it's best to get it right when capturing the photograph.
Mixing different light temperatures has its own set of issues. For example, using a flash outdoors during daylight.
I always used off-camera flash with pocket wizards.
Light modifiers is another subject.
Window light is fine if it's high enough, controlled.
Outdoors time of day and direction should be considered in your lighting recipe.
Here is some info on lighting of the human face:
https://digital-photography-school.com/6-portrait-lighting-patterns-every-photographer-should-know/
Video by Monte:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qoLlA1wMYuI
Lighting is a very important ingredient with photography. It can elevate a photograph from snapshot to something creative.
PKR
Veteran
I'm looking at everything. Reflections, shadow sharpness and cut-off. It's fun. I really can't tell film from digital well with the file size and my little tab. Good digital looks much like film and vice a versa with good lighting. In the older sensors it was easy to see any fuzzy area being smoothed by the pixel site firmware. Everyone got better with the later cameras.
Nice stuff. I would have no trouble referring you!
x-ray
Veteran
Ok It's time to give the particulars on the shots.
1st series, left to right -- #1- digital with Tungsten fresnel spots The slash of light on the plea was a 1K bounced off of a piece of white foam core. Two Pepper LTM fresnel spots were used for accents on the edges and shot through toughspun diffusion material. #2 is digital and I used three 150 watt fresnel mini spots with snoots and barn doors and reflected off of small white cards. #3 was using the 150 watt tungsten modeling lights in my Speedotron force 10's bounced off of white cards. The ambient light was tungsten so i wanted to balance the images. I used grids in the reflectors to keep the light from going everywhere. I wanted to retain a feeling of direction.
Second series #1- Digital with a single 14" soft box over head with white cards for fill. #2 was digital, Hasselblad digital back on Technikardan 23 with Micro Nikkor 120mm. I used tungsten fresnel mini spots each 150 watts. #3 - Canon 1DsII with 24 TS lens using strobes in umbrellas.
Third series - #1- Shot with 1DsII and 70-200 f2.8 L - I used the tungsten modeling lights from my Speedotron Force 10's to light plus candle light. I used grids on the reflectors and 24" silk diffusers. The diffusers were close to the food and the grids allowed me to give a directional but soft and very controllable light. I thin I had 5 light on the subject. #2 - This is an old shot from the late 70's. It's fresnel spots and white bounce cards. Some direct light and some bounce. It was shot on 8x10 Ektachrome tungsten E6 film with a 19" Goerz Red Dot Artar. I can't remember but it was probably shot about f64 and an exposure of two or three minutes with CC filters to correct the emulsion batch and reciprocity error. Also yes all the food including the butter is real. Shot #3- is 4x5 Ektachrome Tungsten using one #2 photoflood lamp in the suspended light plus a couple of 8' white reflectors.
Series 4 #1- I shot it with my Rollei SL66 and 50 Distagon on Provia. Basically there were three strobe lights. One main 6' Chimera to camera left, one smaller metallic lined chimera for edge light and one open head on the background. Shot #2 was with an old D1x Nikon. It was a small section of a huge set. I had about 50,000 ws of Speedotron light on it through bounce off the white ceiling, large soft boxes and direct heads with grids. Very complex lighting! #3- I shot Patricia with a mix of 500K balanced HMI and Speedotron strobe in umbrellas.
Last Series - #1 - I used strobe with a Speedotron beauty dish without grid for my main light to the left. I had a 11" reflector with a 40 degree grid for edge lighting and two heads with grids on the background. #2 - The MRI was tough because you couldn't take lights into th magnet room and the space where the control panel was located was horrible small. The magnet was lit with natural light through a skylight and the operator had one small Chimera soft box on his face and a 12" white translucent umbrella on his back. I was wedged in a corner. #3 - was shot with strobe and medium soft boxes using white card reflectors and black cards.
I hope this illustrates anything goes and you can't tell tungsten or continuous light from strobe. it all comes down to how it's handled.
1st series, left to right -- #1- digital with Tungsten fresnel spots The slash of light on the plea was a 1K bounced off of a piece of white foam core. Two Pepper LTM fresnel spots were used for accents on the edges and shot through toughspun diffusion material. #2 is digital and I used three 150 watt fresnel mini spots with snoots and barn doors and reflected off of small white cards. #3 was using the 150 watt tungsten modeling lights in my Speedotron force 10's bounced off of white cards. The ambient light was tungsten so i wanted to balance the images. I used grids in the reflectors to keep the light from going everywhere. I wanted to retain a feeling of direction.
Second series #1- Digital with a single 14" soft box over head with white cards for fill. #2 was digital, Hasselblad digital back on Technikardan 23 with Micro Nikkor 120mm. I used tungsten fresnel mini spots each 150 watts. #3 - Canon 1DsII with 24 TS lens using strobes in umbrellas.
Third series - #1- Shot with 1DsII and 70-200 f2.8 L - I used the tungsten modeling lights from my Speedotron Force 10's to light plus candle light. I used grids on the reflectors and 24" silk diffusers. The diffusers were close to the food and the grids allowed me to give a directional but soft and very controllable light. I thin I had 5 light on the subject. #2 - This is an old shot from the late 70's. It's fresnel spots and white bounce cards. Some direct light and some bounce. It was shot on 8x10 Ektachrome tungsten E6 film with a 19" Goerz Red Dot Artar. I can't remember but it was probably shot about f64 and an exposure of two or three minutes with CC filters to correct the emulsion batch and reciprocity error. Also yes all the food including the butter is real. Shot #3- is 4x5 Ektachrome Tungsten using one #2 photoflood lamp in the suspended light plus a couple of 8' white reflectors.
Series 4 #1- I shot it with my Rollei SL66 and 50 Distagon on Provia. Basically there were three strobe lights. One main 6' Chimera to camera left, one smaller metallic lined chimera for edge light and one open head on the background. Shot #2 was with an old D1x Nikon. It was a small section of a huge set. I had about 50,000 ws of Speedotron light on it through bounce off the white ceiling, large soft boxes and direct heads with grids. Very complex lighting! #3- I shot Patricia with a mix of 500K balanced HMI and Speedotron strobe in umbrellas.
Last Series - #1 - I used strobe with a Speedotron beauty dish without grid for my main light to the left. I had a 11" reflector with a 40 degree grid for edge lighting and two heads with grids on the background. #2 - The MRI was tough because you couldn't take lights into th magnet room and the space where the control panel was located was horrible small. The magnet was lit with natural light through a skylight and the operator had one small Chimera soft box on his face and a 12" white translucent umbrella on his back. I was wedged in a corner. #3 - was shot with strobe and medium soft boxes using white card reflectors and black cards.
I hope this illustrates anything goes and you can't tell tungsten or continuous light from strobe. it all comes down to how it's handled.
PKR
Veteran
x-ray; On the MRI photo, were the monitor images shot separately or, was the image made in one exposure?
An old friend, a still life photographer, had a tungsten lamp soft box. It was an aluminum 4x4 with fans at the lamp end and vent holes on the sides to allow for air intake. He used electronic flash for many photos, but loved that tungsten soft box. It was pretty bright as I can't remember him having reciprocity problems with 8x10 Ektachrome. He had some major winery accounts, and used that light for all but pour shots. He had a wonderful studio with a wood shop in the back. He built many of his own props. He died on the golf course at 50, a serious smoker. His former assistants are some of the best table top guys working locally today.
An old friend, a still life photographer, had a tungsten lamp soft box. It was an aluminum 4x4 with fans at the lamp end and vent holes on the sides to allow for air intake. He used electronic flash for many photos, but loved that tungsten soft box. It was pretty bright as I can't remember him having reciprocity problems with 8x10 Ektachrome. He had some major winery accounts, and used that light for all but pour shots. He had a wonderful studio with a wood shop in the back. He built many of his own props. He died on the golf course at 50, a serious smoker. His former assistants are some of the best table top guys working locally today.
Chris101
summicronia
I think the phrase "looks like flash" when said casually, without reference to the kind of light modification folks such as x-ray do, means that it was taken with an on-camera flash or one in the shoe above the camera. I don't think it means that the observer has done extensive image analysis to determine the nature of the illumination.
By the way, x-ray, I really appreciate the examples and cheat-sheet you have provided here. Really good stuff!
By the way, x-ray, I really appreciate the examples and cheat-sheet you have provided here. Really good stuff!
x-ray
Veteran
The MRI shot was one shot. It was luck that the screen and light on the magnet balanced in intensity. Luck is good though.
I was with an ad agency for 9 years and we had a 4x4 aluminum 4K light made by Colortran. It was built for Ascor and had two 3ft flash tubes in it plus the 4K of halogen light. You could use either source independently. Each flash tube could take 24,000ws. Really nice idea. This might have been a spinoff of the Ascor Sun system. You probably know Ascor became Speedotron.
PKR
Veteran
No, I didn't know about the Ascor - Speedotron connection. I had one pal who had a Sun Light generator console. 4 capacitor drawers at 5k w/s each. He had a second generator that was a copy of the Sun Light. I repaired that one once for him as a favor. Those things are so dangerous, it's easy to make a mistake and get cooked. It took two people to remove each of the capacitor drawers. Thank god for modern electronics.
I used quartz light for a while, but doing location work with them was a big hassle. Too much wire to pack and ship. And on a hot day without air conditioning, they are not fun.
I did a similar shot for a high tech nuclear sensor group. When I finished the marketing women came in and said, we have 25 different monitor screens to photograph. I taught one of the engineers how to do the work and went on to the next one.
x-ray
Veteran
PKR it might have been you that told the joke about the sun banks. It goes something like this, "why do Sun lights come with a broom stick? To pry the assistant off of them when it arcs".
I used to shoot NEM modules for EG&G ORTEC. They produced nuclear monitoring and sensing equipment with ultra low electronic noise. These devices led to the PET CT scanners and improvements in MRI's.
I used to shoot NEM modules for EG&G ORTEC. They produced nuclear monitoring and sensing equipment with ultra low electronic noise. These devices led to the PET CT scanners and improvements in MRI's.
PKR
Veteran
EG&G, is Doc Edgerton of MIT I think. Inventor of the electronic flash.
I wasn't the one who told you about the broom stick, but.. very true. What I may have told you is that my pal had one head with 4 tubes in it. He could deliver 20k w/s to a single head. His assistant told me if he had his hand in the shot while running a Polaroid, it would burn all the hair off of his arm from a couple of feet away.
Just the thing for photographing ice cream. My pal was a food photographer.
http://edgerton-digital-collections.org/docs-life/egg-the-company
x
x-ray
Veteran
And I thought 4800ws in a single tube was a lot. Speedotron has a 4 tube head that can take a total of 9600ws. I think I had a total output of something on the order of 50,000ws. I used all of them on some sets. My studio was in a large steel building and had 2-800 amp circuits in my place. When I fired everything on fast recycle the surge created a magnetic field around the metal conduit in the building and caused the skin of the building to rattle. The 4800's pull 40 amps on rapid cycle for 4 seconds. I don't think that includes the modeling lights either. 400-500 amps suddenly is a major power surge.
PKR
Veteran
That's a lot of power for a stills Studio.
That big head had 4 3/4" cables feeding it. It was a b**ch to move around. Think about Penn's 16 head Ascor rig. 16 3/4" cables going up to the studio ceiling. I can't imagine the weight and the toil it took to move that thing around. But, it was inventive. Penn built all kinds of lighting gear. He isn't given credit for his creative engineering.
x-ray
Veteran
The black line Speedos have 900v capacitors like several other systems. I imagine the voltage to the tubes in the sun system was much higher.
Most units are arc protected but it's still possible to get them to arc. I sold several old 2401 Speedotrons and the guy that bought them managed to arc one. Speedotron thought it occurred in an explosive atmosphere because the top of the pack speperated from the bottom and blew a hole the size of a quarter in the side. It bulged the sides and tore the screws out of the aluminum. One socket blew totally apart. The top half of the case hit the ceiling destroying the top and cracked a 2x4. The guy was lucky his head wasn't over it. Speedotron examined the pack and said there wasn't enough power in the pack to do that and determined it happened in an explosive atmosphere. After seeing this I'm a little more careful to keep my face out of the way when I switch them on. Also I've always been careful to never unplug a head when powered up or until fully discharged. It only takes one arc.
Imagine what a studio strobe could do to you. To start and stop a persons heart, Drs use around 50ws. We're talking 4800ws. Even a 400ws unit could be lethal or cause serious burns.
Most units are arc protected but it's still possible to get them to arc. I sold several old 2401 Speedotrons and the guy that bought them managed to arc one. Speedotron thought it occurred in an explosive atmosphere because the top of the pack speperated from the bottom and blew a hole the size of a quarter in the side. It bulged the sides and tore the screws out of the aluminum. One socket blew totally apart. The top half of the case hit the ceiling destroying the top and cracked a 2x4. The guy was lucky his head wasn't over it. Speedotron examined the pack and said there wasn't enough power in the pack to do that and determined it happened in an explosive atmosphere. After seeing this I'm a little more careful to keep my face out of the way when I switch them on. Also I've always been careful to never unplug a head when powered up or until fully discharged. It only takes one arc.
Imagine what a studio strobe could do to you. To start and stop a persons heart, Drs use around 50ws. We're talking 4800ws. Even a 400ws unit could be lethal or cause serious burns.
PKR
Veteran
400 could kill you if it got across your chest. Always one hand only when switching. Discharge before adding or removing head plugs.
The Ascor Sunlight was 5000 VDC as I recall. But the big 40uf oil filled caps stored enough energy in joules to lift a Cadillac a few feet off the ground.
A guy I knew worked in Macy's studio. They had many 1200 & 2400 w/s Balcar units. Another, smaller, but dangerous unit. Someone was working with a motor drive and a flash generator exploded sending shrapnel in to the near by wall. A bunch of models had just walked between the generator and the wall. No one was hurt, but it had a big effect on Balcar sales locally.
Having worked on some speedotron gear, don't buy any Brown Line stuff. Stick with Black Line.
Ronald M
Veteran
A flash perched on camera top is easily spotted.
Studio Flash used with various modifiers are beautiful. One fav is 6 foot dia umbrella with white diffuser and Einstein flash all sold by Paul C Buff.
Years back I used Lowell DP lights bounced into heat resistant umbrellas. Subjects could sit there all day unlike a 12" reflector & bulb which is very uncomfortable. You need a tripod or lots of electricity.
Color can be slightly different with digital. All else being equal, very difficult to tell apart.
Studio Flash used with various modifiers are beautiful. One fav is 6 foot dia umbrella with white diffuser and Einstein flash all sold by Paul C Buff.
Years back I used Lowell DP lights bounced into heat resistant umbrellas. Subjects could sit there all day unlike a 12" reflector & bulb which is very uncomfortable. You need a tripod or lots of electricity.
Color can be slightly different with digital. All else being equal, very difficult to tell apart.
willie_901
Veteran
Those very things (except convenience and features) determine the "visual look".
Flash light is often strong and narrow. The look derives from using flash bulbs where light intensity and beam width was fixed. The shadows, in particular, are part of that look. Contemporary photographers try to use flash/strobes to create a natural look. This is difficult compared to the classic, high-power flash technique
It would be simple (if budget was not a restraint) to simulate the classic flash "visual look" with continuous light. But why bother? Just use a flash.
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