Where is the digital Voigtlander RF?

NickTrop said:
God what is this obsession with digital?

Here's a snip form the 2006 interview with Kobayashi. The entire article from Popular Photography is linked at the end.

Speaking Frankly: The Contrary Mind of Hirofumi Kobayashi
If you ride the special express train 126 miles northwest from Tokyo, you'll find yourself in Nagano Prefecture...

By Herbert Keppler
April 2006

I had what I thought was a brilliant idea for Kobayashi. Just as he had made basic, inexpensive 35mm SLR camera bodies with various lensmounts, why not do the same for digital cameras?

"Look at the short life of digital SLRs and their continuously falling prices," rejoined Kobayashi. "Why should I get into that mess?"

http://www.popphoto.com/blogsandcol...-the-contrary-mind-of-hirofumi-kobayashi.html
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Indeed. Why would he? Cosina... Compete with Sony? Matsu****a Electronics? Uh uh... this guy's a brilliant business man.
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The digital market is maturing...and I don't think the rangefinder crowd is as prone to chase the latest megapixel...or at least, I don't think they would be.
Any sensor from any of the 1.5 crop cameras on the market today would likely do.
Perhaps as Mr. K sees the market mature, he'll be more interested.
 
Look here's the deal. Back in the 70s everybody had a CB radio. The real radio enthusist moved to a more upscale form of CB radio called Single Sideband. The elitist took the plunge into Ham Radio. It's the same now with cameras. Everybody has a digi camera. There are then those that become enthusist & step up to a DSLR. Yes many stay at this stage, but there are some that remember the old slr film days & are also getting pretty tired of sitting in front of their computers having to shop their prints all the time because the quality isn't the same. We are the elitist. We are the nitche. Every day you see a new member with a first post that goes like this...I have a dslr but I wan't a RF....I go to my favorite camera store and talk with these guys that make a living selling cameras and ask them about digital and what do you here... Yea I did that for a year or so but I switched back to film. then you have a small nitche that have RD-1s & M8s and thats cool. But even most of these guys aren't selling off their M6s or M7s. Mr K. is no dummy either. He knows film is going to be around for our lifetime, or he wouldn't have even bothered with the Bessa R4. Voightlander even came out with a new film slr this past year. So quit worrying about it.:)
 
I'm sure someone as smart as Kobayashi-san (who probably isn't Cosina's owner) would have made up his mind upon (if he hadn't before) witnessing the M8 debacle and how many RD-1 made have actually been sold.

Granted, some people who are put off by the M8's excessive IR-sensitivity are buying the RD-1 instead, but I believe Epson is just selling off old stock and not making any more.
 
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Seems more likely that Zeiss might come out with a digital rangefinder if/when they felt the technology was sufficiently suited to their requirements, and cost was reasonable. They're also probably watching the M8 to see what sort of bumps are encountered.
 
If it's as easy as you make it sound, build the darn thing yourself. Just grab any old Cosina RF body and rip a sensor out of a used Canon DSLR and glue it in place. Sure, it'll work...
 
fanatics....

fanatics....

Reading all the postings in this discussions (and for that matter in similar discussions earlier) I cannot avoid thinking that many on this great site are a little but "religiously fanatic" about the stuff you/we have and the beauty of film.

The world is going digital and within a few years things will be possible within the camera fields which we cannot even think of today. Things will look and be different but the world is moving on. Maybe there will not be a "digital rangefinder" exactly as we today define "rangefinder" but if we look at what the inventors of the rangefinders was after,
- easy to use
- small and compact
- great optics
- possible to use in groups of people without turning it into a photo-session
- and so on
then I am absolutely sure there will be digital applications - question is more how and what will they look like.... So to me it is not about "defending" the stuff we have today and love and will for sure continue to use for a long time - it is about what trends we see for new developments and new opportunities in the digital world. Not exactly the same but the same functionality or application....

Will it be the DSLR´s becoming so small and easy to work with so that they will take over (just look at how small the Nikon D40 is vs the first Nikon DSLR´s) or will it be the "point and shoot" cameras that will grow more sophisticated like the Ricoh GR Digital or the upcoming Sigma DP-1 or will it be something closer to the traditional rangefinder models like a Vioghtländer or why not a Nikon or a Canon model (those players could really change the market and boost this nische if they wanted).

For someone with a business minded approach the "digital rangefinder" segment in a broader sense could be a really interesting opportunity!

J
 
Strange animals !!

Strange animals !!

The market will go in the direction of greater quality for combined products based on the mobile phone. And 80% of the population will see film photografer as a strange animal . Perhaps a small group of artist photografers will stick to film and sell pictures taken at important moment in life: mariage, divorce :eek: ,death, child born,... as it was in the begginning of photography !

I must say that I hope to be one of the strange animals...:eek: :eek:
 
I still cannot see where it would be beyond the realm of possibility that Cosina would eventually introduce a digital rangefinder. I almost consider it more likely than not.

From the release intro'ing the RD-1...

Cosina has developed outstanding original optics technologies in the production of camera lenses while still maintaining a rigorous fidelity to the historic photography heritage. Epson felt that if the companies were to use the rangefinder camera platform—a platform that is being left in the wake of progress toward the digital age—and if they were to merge Epson's digital image processing technology with Cosina's advanced optics technology, they might be able to discover some completely new creative photographic possibilities. This idea led to collaboration between the two companies, with engineers from both sides paying uncompromising attention to detail during product development. Thus was born the R-D1.

http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/news_2004_03_11.htm

Doesn't seem to be that much of a longshot to me.
 
- easy to use
- small and compact
- great optics
- possible to use in groups of people without turning it into a photo-session
- and so on

Sounds like the build requirements for the modern point and shoot, i.e. the direct spawn of the early Leica...

That said, I suspect we'll see another product like the R-D1. Maybe from C/V, maybe a rebadged C/V product like the Epson or ZI line, but my gut says it'll happen.
To me, the argument that people can't make good photos with digital equipment is kinda silly. A little self control with the shutter button is all it takes, followed by good printing.
 
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If the film market contracts to the point where it can no longer support film-only companies of any size, then Cosina will go out of business if they don't have a digital product, regardless of what Mr K would personally like. I would put money on CV being involved in digital products again at some point in the quite near future, even if only as a supplier to another company (as with the Epson deal).

My guess is that the next digital RF will be Chinese made.

Ian
 
Yes maybe the Chineese !?

Yes maybe the Chineese !?

I agree with IML, there are bound to be several project ongoing within companies like Cosina, maybe Nikon and Canon, most likely a couple of Chineese players and so on looking at various product development routes to take incl surfing on existing trends and technologies as well as looking for new opportunities.. Question is more - what will the things be that will see the market ? When will it come etc...

/J
 
Just make a modular beast... Bessa with interchangeable sensor board (I should patent this :D ) and upgradeable firmware... and you have a camera that'll last ...and user's that'll be dependable on updates and support... so one could price the product a little lower, maybe.

Firmware could be even licensed as open source... this way all those little problems that M8 have, could be avoided without the need to wait for another official version... in small and fast iterations.

That would be a real pro and enthusiast tool... make it robust... with wide selection of glass and best possible sensors in every moment...

...it's cheaper to R&D just the sensor board for existing platform, than to reinvent something new, almost, from the ground up.
 
If the film market contracts to the point where it can no longer support film-only companies of any size, then Cosina will go out of business if they don't have a digital product, regardless of what Mr K would personally like.
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If Cosina is forced by the market to make digital products in order to survive, is that more likely to be DSLRs (huge market), p&s cameras (huge market), or rangefinders (tiny market) - especially seeing as their area of expertise has traditionally been in manufacturing cameras for other companies?
 
I agree, there won't necessarily be a CV-branded digital RF. But I suspect they will end up supplying many of the parts for a digital ZI. Within the next two years is my guess.

Ian
 
There is definitely a niche to exploit. The niche is a digital compact camera with manual focus and full "traditional" manual control. The big boys have come close but their attempts have been flawed. I think someone will eventually get it right, whether it will be an M-mount camera is another matter.

I think it would make sense for Cosina to make an affordable body, but the question is whether the investment required would be recouped in lens sales (the main reason for them to do it IMO). The body price would have to be right (not much more than an R3/R4) and that will be the hardest to achieve, particularly with the increased requirement for aftersales and warranty (what killed the R-D1).

There is definitely a reaction going on to digital P&S and DSLRs, those markets are heading towards commoditisation and will stay that way until sensor technology (high dynamic range) improves. The bodies are becoming identical in terms of features and the output similarly so. People are going to start to look for something different to enhance their creativity - being digital is all about being different...
 
I'm certainly not an expert in this, but from casual observation, it would seem that Cosina is probably not interested for the moment. That doesn't mean, however, that there might not be a pixel cam in the future.

Cosina seems to be feeding a niche market right now, and sitting where they are in their price-point in relation to ZI and Leica, they are probably doing very well. I would submit that Cosina won't make a radical change in course just for the heck of it. Why put all of that $ into R&D when there's really no point in it. I don't own a digi RF, and admittedly don't know much about them, but it would seem that Leica and Epson are taking hits for the M8 and the RD-1 right now.

Just a thought,
Kent
 
goo0h said:
They're also probably watching the M8 to see what sort of bumps are encountered.
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One might reasonably expect that,but I had some dealings with them lately on the issue of ZM lenses on the M8 and they were rather clueless about the ins and outs of the M8,much to my surprise.
 
Mazurka said:
Granted, some people who are put off by the M8's excessive IR-sensitivity are buying the RD-1 instead
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That is a surprising statement,given that
1. The Epson is rather IR sensitive
2. Is off the market and has not been easily available for some time already.
 
gb hill said:
Yes many stay at this stage, but there are some that remember the old slr film days & are also getting pretty tired of sitting in front of their computers having to shop their prints all the time because the quality isn't the same.
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Interesting perspective... lil anecdote illustrating your point.

1. Last summer, a student in the electronics department where I work was carrying around a late model Sony DSLR in a small cardboard box. Asked him about it, he gave me a long customer service (all too familiar) sob story about how his camera never worked right out of the box... several repair attempts... warranty now expired... etc., etc., etc.. He was walking around with it hoping one of the Profs in electronics would take a look at it. A desperate move. He had sunk, he said, $1800 into the system, which now is paperweight.

2. This winter, I took a bunch of candids with a $40 Yashica GSN and had them blown up to 8x10 and posted them on a corkboard in the college where I work. One was a candid by this same student (coincidence) working in an electronics lab. He was "blown away" by the 8x10, so much so that he took the pic off the wall, went to my office and asked if he could have it. Sure/flattered. He asked me what camera it was, it had "a different more natural look"... That's because at least 1/2 the time they don't even know I took their picture, and shoot nearly always without a flash. These are capabilities most suited to rangefinders (smallish cameras, though not the GSN... fast lenses, no flash, quick focus, silent shutters...) I mostly use Kodak UC Pro 400 for color, which is a nice rich film, colors pop, and it's good with skin tones.

I showed him the GSN I keep in my drawer. We had a quick chat, he was intrigued by it... built solid, feels good in your hand. I explained that that f1.7 + 400 speed = no flash. Therefore no redeye, and that although this is a big camera, you're not jabbing a giant zoom lens with a pedal hood in people's faces. He seemed sold, and for $50 for a decent working sample, why not? (He was amazed at the "battery life" 6 months, a year... and the GSN sucks batteries compared to other fixed lens rangefinders...)

I get complimented a lot on the photos I take, and have two large cork board devoted to them. I get "they look different" or words to that effect. Truth is? I'm a mediocre average amateur photographer. About all I know from formal composition is "rule of thirds" and I now have a good feel for how to use a rangefinder. Pre-meter, pre-focus, decisivive moment. For people shots I open up the aperture a little wider for some bokeh. Stop it down if I'm wanting everything in focus. Click. That about sums up my photographic knowledge.

I attribute these compliments to having a very, very good camera and that people in these digital days never saw an honest to goodness natural light candid snap shot in their life. Nor have they ever had one taken of them. It's aways "say cheese" from a crappy angle looking down on the subject, blinded by a flash... or being rudely jabbed in the face with a giant digital zoom lens, posed shots where they're blinded even worse by a big flash.

Realize that there is millions and millions of PR and ad dollars selling gullible (imo) consumers on the "advantages" of digital cameras. Compare that to film cameras, where virtually "nothing" is spent... If the ad dollars were put back into film, you would see more on the shelves at the camera shop. And that won't happen until digital sales drop off - perhaps because consumers are too lazy to sit in front of their PC, or because "why should I buy a digital camera, I can take just as good a shot with my cell phone. My new cell has a 3x digital zoom!". Consumers, as always being played like a flute.
 
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