Where should Samsung with NX aim ?

[squirrel$$$bandit]

I wouldn't buy a 4/3's camera because - to me, there is one main determining factor regarding the quality of images and that is the size of the film plane. That's true in film, it's true in digital. The 4/3rds sensors are too small. APS-C is a concession over full-frame 35, and that's the smallest I want to go if I'm spending $700, 800, $1000 for a camera. Not a lot for some, but as much as I'm willing to spend as a tool for a serious hobbyist. I view them as glorified "cool looking" point and shoot cameras that are overpriced for what they do and make too many concessions as a photographic tool because they got it backwards regarding form following function. If that places me in the minority - so be it.

As for "paragraph breaks" - he who points out grammar and typos on blog posts loses the race automatically. - analogous to illegally switching lanes during speed skating competitions.

You're missing my point. I'm NOT arguing with you about the relative strengths of the two camera systems. I honestly don't care about that. They are both fine. It's just that every time you say something positive about one, you put down the other. It's like you're going out of your way to piss people off. IT DOESN'T MATTER if one of them is better. Go get an NX10, take good photos, post them here, talk about why you like the camera. You are not at war with the people who chose to adopt a different one. It's perfectly reasonable to say that one camera might be better for certain applications than another, but I don't understand this sense that you feel personally offended by the camera system you don't support, or by other people's positive opinion of it.

And I am not the guy who complained about the paragraph breaks.

 

[NickTrop]

It is a circular argument. But when making decisions, you "draw a line in the sand" somewhere and that line is a "logically-based" arbitrary one. I'm sure the 4/3-rds cameras take fine images. My little Fuji Finepix F20 takes acceptable images but is not capable of selective focus. Without going through a lot of trouble, I'd say you lose a stop or so of selective focus capability due to the size difference between 4/3rds and APS-C? Other 4/3 users have posted about this. I'm already losing some capability here between 35mm and APS-C. The 4/3 have a 2X crop factor, the APS-C has 1.5, a significant difference when measured as a percentage. As far as the trying the camera, etc... Again, I'm not all that wonky about the subtle differences here which are largely subjective. Here are some quotes from a Luminious Landscape article about the Pentax K-7 regarding picture quality which is directly related to its sensor (and firmware):

"Image quality is fine, but not exceptional, and maybe a bit noisier than some...looking at resolution and high ISO capability, the K7 stood firmly in the middle of the pack."
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/k7-hands.shtml

This meets my expectations. "Fine" is "fine". My expectation is it will produce images as good as any other DSLR, that is, very good. As far as shoot a 4/3rds, don't have to. Again, I don't need to shoot these things - I'm sure the images are fine, they just make too many compromises to me and have crossed that arbitrary line. And, the only truly pockable camera - film or digital, to me have collapsable lenses and a form factor small enogh to put in your pocket, comfortably (not all jammed in there... or wearing pant with giant pocket to accomidate it...) Larger than that, and without collapsible lenses, it's not to me "pocketable". Both 4/3 and the NX with a pancake lens fall under the category of "compact" but one is equivalent to, say, a Yashica CC and the other a Konica Auto S3.

 

[Matus]

The discussion of 4/3 versus APS-C (or DX) reminds me very much the discussions about 6x7 versus 645.

There is a substantial step area wise between 35mm (FX) and APS-C (DX) this shows in the high ISO sensitivity and in the ability to use the selective focus. If you play a bit with some of the DOF calculators on the web, you will find out that for every 1.44 conversion factor (for the effective focal length) you "gain" 1 stop of the DOF for the same subject. In other words a shot taken with FX camera and 50mm lens @ f/2.8 will have nearly the same DOF as APS-C camera with 33mm lens @ f/2.0, because the conversion factor of 1.5 is close to 1.44.

going down to 4/3 cameras - you "gain" 2 stops as the focal length conversion factor is 2 (2 = 1.44*1.44) so to get the same DOF as above a lens 25/1.4 will be needed.

Of course the limiting f/stop (when the diffraction kicks in) will be for every format different - as the smaller the format the bigger the scaling factor to get the same sized print.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[NickTrop]

The discussion of 4/3 versus APS-C (or DX) reminds me very much the discussions about 6x7 versus 645.

There is a substantial step area wise between 35mm (FX) and APS-C (DX) this shows in the high ISO sensitivity and in the ability to use the selective focus. If you play a bit with some of the DOF calculators on the web, you will find out that for every 1.44 conversion factor (for the effective focal length) you "gain" 1 stop of the DOF for the same subject. In other words a shot taken with FX camera and 50mm lens @ f/2.8 will have nearly the same DOF as APS-C camera with 33mm lens @ f/2.0, because the conversion factor of 1.5 is close to 1.44.

going down to 4/3 cameras - you "gain" 2 stops as the focal length conversion factor is 2 (2 = 1.44*1.44) so to get the same DOF as above a lens 25/1.4 will be needed.

Of course the limiting f/stop (when the diffraction kicks in) will be for every format different - as the smaller the format the bigger the scaling factor to get the same sized print.

I hope this makes sense.

It makes perfect sense and thanks for doing the leg work. And that's "the line". "50mm lens @ f/2.8 will have nearly the same DOF as APS-C camera with 33mm lens @ f/2.0." It's a concession - a somewhat large one but one I can live with: F2 = F2.8; F2.8 = F4; 30mm = 45mm. "4/3 cameras...to get the same DOF as above a lens 25/1.4 will be needed"... Close but no cigar, it crosses that line. Thanks again.

 

[gavinlg]

I don't really care that much, but just playing the devils advocate here - my 5d with the voigtlander 40mm f2 will give significantly better IQ than any of these cameras, and really isn't that much bigger. None of them can actually fit into a pocket like an olympus XA. This is the main problem I have with my e-p1. Anytime I need that kind of quality I may as well be using my 5d with a small prime.

Either way, the samsung does look nice.

 

[shadowfox]

And while y'all "discussing" the technical merits of small and smaller sensors, these folks on this website are busy taking darn good pictures:

http://www.myfourthirds.com

 

[NickTrop]

And while y'all "discussing" the technical merits of small and smaller sensors, these folks on this website are busy taking darn good pictures:

http://www.myfourthirds.com

Yes... however, the purpose of a forum is to "discuss" (don't take that as a snark - it isn't). You can take fine pix with any camera, 4/3rds no exception. But technical merits do matter when investing in a kit that will wind up costing a grand when all is said and done. Hence the discussion. Regarding selective focus/IQ, an APS-C sensor is as small as I'm willing to begrudgingly go regarding film plane size. The film plane size effects things that matter to me with respect to photography. This is also true regarding framing using a viewfinder.

 

[charjohncarter]

Will we see a full frame sensor, and AF compatablilty with older lenses?

 

[Kevin]

Of course. Canon will be the first to make a full-frame EVIL camera with new lenses and adapters for both its FD and EF lens lines.

My prediction is that it will be announced this year or next.

 

[j j]

Just so you have something different to read when poll activities bring this to the top again, I'm looking forward to Samsung's 16mm, 60mm (macro) and 85 primes. If they are as good as the 30mm, this will be a nice little high-quality system. And this week they did the marvelous thing of updating previous models to current new spec through a firmware update. I wish more companies would do that.

 

[kshapero]

What ever happened to the NX11 series?

 

[jsrockit]

In all seriousness, have you ever shot with a camera with a 4/3 sensor before? They're pretty good... Not as good as a full frame nikon or canon but about equal to aps-c dslrs.

Perhaps in bright light, but not in dim light.