rbelyell
Well-known
especially with this kind of camera, imo, an optical vf is not sufficient for me. i need to confirm focus in my vf. i like exposure info in my vf. pretty basic stuff, but not available in add on ovf.
Where to now for the foveon sensor ... ?
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GaryLH
Veteran
I really suspect it may have to do w/ processing horsepower... There may not be enough headroom to dual image display path for evf and LCD plus the digital path for the jpg plus raw. Even if u say raw only, there is an imbedded full size jpg in that raw file..other camera makers put a really small jpg inside their raw files to speed raw display output..
The other issues could be battery life related or the amount of new firmware required for the evf display that has to handle the processing for Quattro sensor. Sigma resources are very limited since they are a family owned company. Any off the shelf hardware (such as evf) may come w/ its own low level drivers..but they are going to need drastic modification from the norm, I would suspect.
I was also hoping in the Quattro iteration there would be an evf as well. At least the af lock confirmation led can be seen from the corner of the eye while u are using the ovf..
It is what it is.
Gary
The other issues could be battery life related or the amount of new firmware required for the evf display that has to handle the processing for Quattro sensor. Sigma resources are very limited since they are a family owned company. Any off the shelf hardware (such as evf) may come w/ its own low level drivers..but they are going to need drastic modification from the norm, I would suspect.
I was also hoping in the Quattro iteration there would be an evf as well. At least the af lock confirmation led can be seen from the corner of the eye while u are using the ovf..
It is what it is.
Gary
rbelyell
Well-known
thats very interesting gary. i really thought adding an evf was no big deal, but maybe it is. do your comments also apply to an 'add on' evf, like with the rx1 etc? if so, i'd happily pay extra for mine!
GaryLH
Veteran
They are just my suppositions. Any decent marketing team is going to realize in today's market evf is a must have. Their new LCD viewfinder (LVF-01) is an indication of those suppositions...to me an acknowledgement of need for better viewing capability vs lack of an evf.
The same would hold true for external evf if my suppositions are true.
On the otherhand, they could use the Ricoh gxr solution which is a switch that controls whether the external evf or internal LCD is to be used (creates either or not both situation)... Either they decided against it or they just never thought of it 🙁. If they decided against, then it is not a horsepower issue.
Cheers
Gary
The same would hold true for external evf if my suppositions are true.
On the otherhand, they could use the Ricoh gxr solution which is a switch that controls whether the external evf or internal LCD is to be used (creates either or not both situation)... Either they decided against it or they just never thought of it 🙁. If they decided against, then it is not a horsepower issue.
Cheers
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
I would love to c them incorporate something like their 18-35f1.8 art into a dp type camera.. Having a csc style camera would be nice..
The sd1m uses dslr lenses. The same lenses that they make for Nikon and canon mounts are available for the SA mount used on the sd1m. In my mind, I do not feel it is meager at all... I have more than enough to select from..both in primes and zoom lenses..
Which lenses are u missing in SA mount??
Gary
f16sunshine
Moderator
My opinion is limited in that I have never owned a Foveon. The images are often fantastic.
The complaints seem to focus mostly on the cpu and power supply.
That said. I think Sigma should look away from Consumer oriented cameras.
Develop a Foveon medium format or even large format system for studio and comercial use.
Really put those 3 layers together in a setting not limited by small battery powered CPU's.
Get some processing behind a big sensor that could really make a strong case in a studio and comerscial setting where production is more important than portability.
The complaints seem to focus mostly on the cpu and power supply.
That said. I think Sigma should look away from Consumer oriented cameras.
Develop a Foveon medium format or even large format system for studio and comercial use.
Really put those 3 layers together in a setting not limited by small battery powered CPU's.
Get some processing behind a big sensor that could really make a strong case in a studio and comerscial setting where production is more important than portability.
Kent
Finally at home...
Even an APS would do, but then for about US$1500. 😉
I still have my DP1s and use it every now and then. Very good images, as long as you don't want to print huge.
Spanik
Well-known
Some primes with stabilisation to counter the iso problems. Some primes with reasonable apertures like f/2.8 with not too much weight/size but still more than f5.6. Some wides for aps-c in the 18-16mm range. And a focussing screen for manual focus.
GaryLH
Veteran
I don't remember Sigma making any primes w/ optical stabilization for other mounts..such as the Nikon or canon mounts from Sigma. So to make something like that for their SA mount version special does not make any sense. They do make stabilized lenses for their zooms.
I have the SA mount 30f1.4 and the 50f1.4 myself. I don't consider them heavy compared to other dslr lenses. Compared to a mirrorless lens that is a different story. I know of other rff member w/ the 35f1.4 in SA mount. The 18-35f1.8 zoom is available in SA mount. There is are lenses that may soon either be discontinued or superseded by a next gen that are primes like the 24f1.8 in SA mount.
In terms of primes in that focal length in SA mount, Sigma tends to make fisheye lenses currently. They like a lot of companies these days, are doing wide angle zooms like their 12-24 for example.
Yes, no focusing screen designed for manual focus.
IMHO, the SA mount line is no more merger than the Nikon or Canon mount lenses that they produce for those other companies. What I do find is that it takes some hunting sometimes to find the lenses that are not as popular in SA mount. Not every store carries the complete lineup.
Gary
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GaryLH
Veteran
Here is a list of SA mount lenses carried by B&H as an example.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...+SA&ci=274&N=4205057766+4291220258+4108103564
For me it is sufficient..for my needs.
Gary
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...+SA&ci=274&N=4205057766+4291220258+4108103564
For me it is sufficient..for my needs.
Gary
B-9
Devin Bro
Sigma has always had a well rounded lens line up, heck they had a cheap 20/1.8 before anyone.
I always thought sigma was a good bang for your buck, especially as a young photog starting into AF. One of my first AF lenses was a Sigma 14mm f3.5. Super quick AF on my then N90s. It was so-so optically, but it was cheap and wide, I loved it for what it was.
Even found a review by TH Check it out!
http://www.bythom.com/14lens.htm
Never tried a Foveon camera but I am tempted.
I always thought sigma was a good bang for your buck, especially as a young photog starting into AF. One of my first AF lenses was a Sigma 14mm f3.5. Super quick AF on my then N90s. It was so-so optically, but it was cheap and wide, I loved it for what it was.
Even found a review by TH Check it out!
http://www.bythom.com/14lens.htm
Never tried a Foveon camera but I am tempted.
Monochrom
Well-known
I can´t complain about my dpm, it shines, i donñpt care about any of the "faults"
And i think sigma should go for a interchangeable lens camera and the same old "faults" i don´t care.
or perhpas put a faster lens f2 would really do.
And i think sigma should go for a interchangeable lens camera and the same old "faults" i don´t care.
or perhpas put a faster lens f2 would really do.
GaryLH
Veteran
On the subject of a csc from Sigma..
Right now, they only have the 19, 30, and 60 f2.8 that are designed for mirrorless. All their other lenses are designed for the dslr market. Until they expand from those 3 mirrorless lenses and compete in other mirrorless markets outside of Sony e mount and m43 mount, I don't c it is worth their effort to add a csc to the lineup given their own small and unique market share.
Their other dslr lines may not be easy to redesign for a mirrorless world. I would love to c some of their new art lenses redesigned for mirrorless.
Whether Sigma goes back to the Merrill type sensor or stays in the Quattro or just leaves the camera business, in my mind depends on the new CEO... I for one want them to stay. They were the only ones willing to take a chance and buy the foveon business from the founder. I hope they make enough to continue the business. Their core business is always going to be the lenses though.
There are several foveon like patents from other companies out there. Not sure if any of them are going to c the light of day though. There is even a rumored 40mp sensor from Olympus that is suppose to be on their new em5mk2 that is suppose to shift the color array or the sensor itself (can't remember exactly at the moment) based on the original 16 sensor they have on their em5mk1.
Gary
Right now, they only have the 19, 30, and 60 f2.8 that are designed for mirrorless. All their other lenses are designed for the dslr market. Until they expand from those 3 mirrorless lenses and compete in other mirrorless markets outside of Sony e mount and m43 mount, I don't c it is worth their effort to add a csc to the lineup given their own small and unique market share.
Their other dslr lines may not be easy to redesign for a mirrorless world. I would love to c some of their new art lenses redesigned for mirrorless.
Whether Sigma goes back to the Merrill type sensor or stays in the Quattro or just leaves the camera business, in my mind depends on the new CEO... I for one want them to stay. They were the only ones willing to take a chance and buy the foveon business from the founder. I hope they make enough to continue the business. Their core business is always going to be the lenses though.
There are several foveon like patents from other companies out there. Not sure if any of them are going to c the light of day though. There is even a rumored 40mp sensor from Olympus that is suppose to be on their new em5mk2 that is suppose to shift the color array or the sensor itself (can't remember exactly at the moment) based on the original 16 sensor they have on their em5mk1.
Gary
charjohncarter
Veteran
I guess it is Beta (VHS) tape time again. The best dies.
GaryLH
Veteran
U would have to bring that up 🙁 😛
Gary
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
From the shots have seen from 36mp sensor cameras in terms of accurate detail at the pixel level, there are shots where the Merrill still wins..but for the most part for other shots it is a push. IMHO color accuracy Merrill is still slightly better w/ in its limitations (nice bright light, low iso below 400), but once past it where color balance issue can crop up or high iso related issue, there is no question these new 36 mp cameras are going to walk all over the Merrill. The Quattro will stay in the game longer, but unless Sigma can do better than what it has now, Quattro or Merrill, once 36mp cameras are at the same price as the 24mp apsc cameras like the Sony a6000 (450 for a body right now at b&h), I am afraid John's prediction is right on the money. There is a rumor about the pro version of the a7 will have a 50mp sensor..who would have ever thought.
The good thing is that, I don't think 36mp camera prices are going to take a drop for awhile 🙂. But if I am wrong, the gear head in me will be very happy.
For now, I am quite happy w/ my foveon cameras.. Plan to keep on using them even if I get the proverble 500 dollar 36mp camera 😛
Gary
The good thing is that, I don't think 36mp camera prices are going to take a drop for awhile 🙂. But if I am wrong, the gear head in me will be very happy.
For now, I am quite happy w/ my foveon cameras.. Plan to keep on using them even if I get the proverble 500 dollar 36mp camera 😛
Gary
Eric T
Well-known
Virtually everyone who bought a Sigma Merrill camera did so for the image quality. We knew what we were giving up in performance - processing speed, low light imaging, etc.
We signed on to the flaws because the image quality was so good.
The Quattro cameras are compromises. Speed and low light performance are better in the quattro cameras but this was done by sacrificing image quality.
In my view, the enhanced performance of the quattro cameras is not sufficient to make up for the loss in image quality.
The quattro cameras still perform slowly compared to cameras other than the Sigma Merrills.
So I think Sigma lost their way with the quattro cameras. Sigma needs outstanding image quality to stand out from the others. Why take a step back in IQ? This is a huge mistake for Sigma.
It is too bad - the Merrill cameras were (and are) special.
We signed on to the flaws because the image quality was so good.
The Quattro cameras are compromises. Speed and low light performance are better in the quattro cameras but this was done by sacrificing image quality.
In my view, the enhanced performance of the quattro cameras is not sufficient to make up for the loss in image quality.
The quattro cameras still perform slowly compared to cameras other than the Sigma Merrills.
So I think Sigma lost their way with the quattro cameras. Sigma needs outstanding image quality to stand out from the others. Why take a step back in IQ? This is a huge mistake for Sigma.
It is too bad - the Merrill cameras were (and are) special.
jarski
Veteran
has anyone done long exposure shots with either Merrill or Quattro? e.g. 30 secs. how does the camera perform what results? tia 🙂
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Coming late to the party here (just got to a place with a reliable internet connection)...
After getting a DP2M, the image quality in both color and black&white was so much to my liking that I lost interest in looking at comparable images from both E6 (which had become too expensive, barring home development) and the M9 (costly and unreliable). So much so that I got the DP1M and DP3M (and sold the M-E, thank goodness).
The thing that everybody really wanted after the DP Merrills was a body designed for the enthusiast à la Fuji: excellent VF, hard knobs, maximal user control/pleasure. I think lots of people, myself included, would have gone all out to buy into such a system even if the sensor had been essentially unchanged since the Merrills.
I also would have much rather seen DPMs with a 21 or 24 FOV, and perhaps a separate zoom model, rather than the Quattro.
After getting a DP2M, the image quality in both color and black&white was so much to my liking that I lost interest in looking at comparable images from both E6 (which had become too expensive, barring home development) and the M9 (costly and unreliable). So much so that I got the DP1M and DP3M (and sold the M-E, thank goodness).
The thing that everybody really wanted after the DP Merrills was a body designed for the enthusiast à la Fuji: excellent VF, hard knobs, maximal user control/pleasure. I think lots of people, myself included, would have gone all out to buy into such a system even if the sensor had been essentially unchanged since the Merrills.
I also would have much rather seen DPMs with a 21 or 24 FOV, and perhaps a separate zoom model, rather than the Quattro.
f16sunshine
Moderator
No one has commented on my suggestion of a more serious platform for this sensor.. not surprising given my limited knowledge. 😛
Seriously though... any of you more techie than me able to comment on Foveons Power needs?
When I look at the file size and the general architecture of 3 layers, it just seems like small compact cameras are always going to be slow and cripled using this tech in a small underpowered package.
If that's true... why not aspire to something more worthy of carrying a tripod ?
Small size seems to bring such a premium for consumer cameras. The SDM line has seperated itself as an enthusiast camera.
So now we have enthusiasts.... Why not work on aiding the sensors performance rather than it's portability?
I think this rather than focusing on novel design esthetics and processing "compromises" (Quatro) is the best direction for Sigma to look.
Seriously though... any of you more techie than me able to comment on Foveons Power needs?
When I look at the file size and the general architecture of 3 layers, it just seems like small compact cameras are always going to be slow and cripled using this tech in a small underpowered package.
If that's true... why not aspire to something more worthy of carrying a tripod ?
Small size seems to bring such a premium for consumer cameras. The SDM line has seperated itself as an enthusiast camera.
So now we have enthusiasts.... Why not work on aiding the sensors performance rather than it's portability?
I think this rather than focusing on novel design esthetics and processing "compromises" (Quatro) is the best direction for Sigma to look.
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