Which ISO setting would you use more often: low or high?

Which ISO setting would you use more often: low or high?

  • I pick the camera set to ISO 200

    Votes: 63 74.1%
  • I pick the camera set to ISO 2000

    Votes: 22 25.9%

  • Total voters
    85
  • Poll closed .

raid

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I wonder quite often why so many posted comments at RFF mention that they needed high ISO. This is seen when the M9 is criticized as not doing well at high ISO settings.
I got this idea: if you were given a camera that was set for one year to ISO 200 versus a camera that was set for one year to ISO 2000, which camera would you be using in 2015, and why.
 
I almost always have my cameras set around ISO100 or ISO160 these days. In the past, my SLR cameras were set to ISO 50 with slide film or (my fast film) was ISO 100. What has changed the world to make high ISO needed so much?
 
I think that younger people shoot at night a lot, given the high numbers of such pics I see on flickr. The older I got the less I enjoyed the "nightlife." Now, at 70...
 
I wonder quite often why so many posted comments at RFF mention that they needed high ISO. This is seen when the M9 is criticized as not doing well at high ISO settings.

I got this idea: if you were given a cameras that was set for one year to ISO 100 versus a camera that was set for one year to ISO 2000, which camera would you be using in 2015, and why.

200 every time, ISO is just the new Megapixel ... and more is always better isn't it? ... our culture approves of more, and new and modern ... advertisers love words like that, words that have intrinsic value ...

... that and I think ISO (film or sensor speed) is getting confused with Exposure (Shutter-speed and Aperture) more and more by people new to the sport 🙂
 
I chose the high ISO. I use my digital, and film, cameras in low light often enough that I would pick that over 200 if I could choose only between the two. Using 200 ISO to shoot a high school basketball game is an exercise in futility. Fortunately, I don't have to choose.
 
Assuming that is base (noise free) ISO for both cameras, the higher ISO camera can be used with ND filters during the day and removed when indoors. Making it a more versatile camera.
FWIW I chose option 1, 200 ISO
 
Assuming that is base (noise free) ISO for both cameras, the higher ISO camera can be used with ND filters during the day and removed when indoors. Making it a more versatile camera.
FWIW I chose option 1, 200 ISO

I tried this logic, but when I used a high quality (new) ND filter with the E-P2, there was a color band in the images. The ND filter had an impact on the sensor.
 
If it is camera where ISO2000 is not the garbage, I'll use it indoors as as.
And with VND outdoors.

In my real world I use 1600-6400 indoors and 100-200 outdoors.

My 5Dc has no issues with VND. My 50 1.2 does vignetting, because I use cheap VND 🙂
 
I tried this logic, but when I used a high quality (new) ND filter with the E-P2, there was a color band in the images. The ND filter had an impact on the sensor.

I was afraid of that.
I instinctively chose option 1 although I do enjoy shooting indoors with available light. Funny thing is even though I still have an Xpro 1 I always reached for my M9 when indoors.
 
What I don't understand is why my fountain pen doesn't have green, red and blue inks when I use black ink on it. I paid far more for the fountain pen, so it should do at least as much as the less expensive multi-colored pen; my logic is bullet-proof and I'm sticking to it.
 
So the wish is for a camera which can handle well both low and high ISO settings. I know this fact. I am after actual usage of very high ISO settings by people. How frequently do you really use ISO 2000+?

I use blue ink and green ink in my fountain pen.
 
My wish is for a full frame camera that can give me 3200 ISO that looks no worse than today's 400.
That would allow me to work indoors at around 125th of a second with decent depth of field. My job often has me shooting aquarium and museum interiors during visiting hours so no flash or extra lighting.
 
The role of ISO in digital photography is commonly misunderstood .

The answer to Raid's question, "...if you were given a camera that was set for one year to ISO 200 versus a camera that was set for one year to ISO 2000, which camera would you be using in 2015, and why" is both complicated and important.

With film cameras the recording media's sensitivity can be changed. But all digital cameras operate at a single analog sensitivity level, base ISO. Base ISO is often 100 or 200, depending on the camera's design.

Also, different brands, and different design generations within the same brand, require different strategies when it comes to choosing the optimum ISO. Photographers can’t make an informed decision about ISO selection if they aren’t aware of their camera’s data stream characteristics.

It turns out JPEG photographers and raw photographers should often use different ISO selection strategies.

A simplifying concept to address Raid's question is not to just think only about high ISO noise, or noise as a single parameter in any context. Technical IQ (and the dynamic range - DR) is primarily determined by the analog signal-to-noise ratio, SNR of the data measured by the sensor.

Raid’s question was succinctly answered by Professor Emil Martinec (University of Chicago) in another Forum. I include an excerpt below.

What is the appropriate mantra? *I would prefer "Maximize Exposure"; maximize subject to three constraints:

(1) maintaining needed DoF, which limits how much you can open up the aperture;
(2) freezing motion, which limits the exposure time;
(3) retaining highlight detail, by not clipping wanted highlight areas in any channel. *
[…]
the prescription is to set the exposure (shutter speed and aperture only) according to (1) and (2); back off the exposure if at base ISO and you are compromising (3). *If you are compromising (3) with your chosen exposure and you are not at base ISO, then you should have started with a lower ISO. *Afterward, depending on the specifics of the camera's noise profile, further optimization results from raising the ISO, up to the limit specified by (3), or the camera's ISO point of diminishing returns, whichever is arrived at first.


Professor Martinec’s advice will always optimize an image’s analog SNR. When time is of the essence, optimal SNR is much less important than spontaneity. Though even then, understanding the disadvantages of gratuitously high ISO settings is useful.

Finally, technical IQ (SNR and DR) is only one aspect of making photograph and it is often not the most important.

Further details are discussed below.
----------------------------------------------

For photographers the signal in SNR is exposure, Exposure determines the total light energy measured by the sensor when the shutter is open. Once the shutter closes exposure (signal) can not be increased. Only two parameters, shutter time and aperture, control exposure. ISO plays no role in exposure.

There is no exposure triangle for digital cameras. Increasing the ISO parameter only amplifies the analog signal levels (and the noise) between the time the shutter closes and when the signals are modeled by the analog-to-digital converter, ADC. This means you can blow highlights two different ways. When the light level exceeds the sensor's maximum analog capacity, the highlights are lost. Or, when the sensor accurately measures all the highlights, increasing ISO can cause signal level to exceed the maximum analog signal capacity of the ADC. In both cases highlight information is lost, but in the latter case the problem is not cause by over exposure, it is caused by over brightening (amplification) the signal levels after the shutter closes.

Shutter time and aperture determine exposure but ISO only affects brightness after the shutter closes. Brightness is not exposure.

The noise is a combination of photon noise (inherent to nature of light) and electronic noise (read noise) from the camera’s data stream. About half the noise in every digital image comes from photon noise (link). The rest of the noise is generated by the camera's electronics.

In some cameras the noise level due to ISO amplification is much lower than the noise generated by ISO amplification.

In other cameras ISO amplification degrades the SNR. Often the design of the ADC requires higher levels of analog signal amplification. These cameras use multi-stage ISO amplification circuits. Many Canon designs use multi-stage ISO amplification. Another example is the M9 families’ data streams. Both empirical and statistical analysis of un-rendered M9 raw data show one should avoid ISO 2500 or greater due to the noise level. Similar conclusions are part of a thread here on RFF (which I could not find using RFF’s Search tool).

Some cameras avoid electronic signal amplification altogether. These designs (Nikon D7000 and others) only use digital multiplication of the raw data file numbers to increase brightness.

Many cameras employ electronic amplification at lower ISOs (below 1600) and a combination of electronic and digital amplification at very high ISO settings.

In this link Bill Claff compares the DR of many cameras vs ISO. In all cases DR decreases as ISO exceeds base ISO. DR depend directly on SNR. So the decrease in DR is caused by the decrease in exposure recommended by the light meter as ISO increases. If you use base ISO and find the shutter time recommended by the light meter (or your experience) is too long to freeze camera or subject motion, you increase ISO. Now the meter recommends a shorter shutter time. A shorter shutter time means less exposure which reduces the SNR as well as the DR. By selecting different cameras in Bill Claff’s study you can tell which cameras use multi-stage ISO amplification designs. For instance the Leica M240’s data stream properties are very different than the M9 response described above. The Canon EOS 5D Mark II clearly uses multi-stage ISO amplification.
 
Thank you very much, Willie, for you very detailed feedback to my simple question. I worry most about somehow degrading the overall qualities of an image when choosing higher ISO settings on a digital camera. With film, we chose the ISO when we chose the film. MF cameras with inter-changeable backs were praised for providing the flexibility to switch between color and B&W film of different ISO. With the modern digital cameras, we don't need such camera backs anymore.
 
If you could let me choose 800 I'd take that any time.

I mostly use 400 because that's the only fast slide available. (not anymore so I have to make-do with 100) It is a good compromise between use outside with light and inside with not much light. The low of 50 or 100 is just not usable inside if you cannot use flash or tripod. While more than 800 is often a problem outside.

On the other hand 2000 is usable with an ND filter. So make it 2000 for me.
 
One of the key issues that Willie mentions (as (2)) and that the OP is not considering, is exposure time required to achieve high resolution.

For instance, at daylight, to actually get a modern Nikon's (or the M240's) resolution, one needs to shoot at f5.6 or f8. For a decent hand-held landscape, to minimize camera shake, I gladly shoot at 1/4000. Even in sunny 16, a very clean ISO 800 comes in handy, ideally with enough DR to pull the shadows a stop or two if needed. For dawn or dusk, maybe combine 1/500-1000 and ISO 1600 ?

For this application, a speed of 1/focal length is too slow. Of course if you need the > 20 Mpixel resolution is another question (in particular if all you generate is online JPEG files), but for my occasional 20x30" print, higher ISO comes in handy. The balanced combination of high resolution, high SNR and high ISO only makes the modern small format digital a valid replacement of a MF film camera. 🙂

So to answer your question, Raid, it depends: I'll gladly pick the ISO 2000 camera with an ND filter (< 3 stops to avoid color shifts), for hand held landscapes. Assuming of course appropriately high SNR.

Roland.
 
Where are cameras which handles low and high ISO well.
Canon 5D MKII, for example. With DLRS it was fine ISO at 6400 long time ago.
I use ISO 1600 as default for indoors at Canon 5D.
 
Thank you for this perspective, Roland. I don't recall having seen a discussion on this every day issue here, so I raised the issue.
 
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