which leica copy?

[atelier7]

After a frustrating weekend unsuccessfully :bang: chasing down a nice screwmount leica on ebay, within my budget and in a nice condition, I figured I'm better off getting a FSU copy. That way, if its just a case of passing infatuation (which it normally is), at least I haven't spent too much.

Its a bit hard to justify (to my other half) why I would pay so much for a 70 yr old camera and lens with unknown degree of reliability when I can spend the same amount for a brand new Bessa R with CV 35! Then again, its hard to justify a brand new Bessa R when I have my GSN!

So, I'm looking for a cheaper alternative. :angel:

I really like the compact size of the Leica II and early IIIs, with a collapsible lens. Are the Zorki 1 and Fed 1 the same size? Are they all bottom feeders? Is there a model which has the older style look top plate but with a removable back?

What about the Zorki 3M? It seems highly recommended by a few here. Is that much bigger? Would that be the poor man's (or woman's) version of the Leica IIIF?

oh yah, I figure I might as well ask here if anyone has one of these they'd be willing to part with. Better tried and tested here than in the murky waters of ebay.
that'll just lead to more frustration...

 

[Roger Hicks]

This is a bit like saying 'I might not like Laphroaig so I'd better buy some Famous Grouse' or 'I might not like caviare so I'd better buy lumpfish roe'.

Buy a half-decent Leica or s/h Bessa and you'll not lose much if you have to resell. Buy cheap Soviet junk, sight unseen, and chances are you'll be throwing away whatever you spend on it. Even GOOD FSU cameras are pretty variable in quality and very clinky to use next to a Leica.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[rover]

There are other options which in general are less expensive than Leica. How about a Canon bottom loader, or what about a Bessa T?

 

[RichardS]

So, I'm looking for a cheaper alternative. :angel:

I really like the compact size of the Leica II and early IIIs, with a collapsible lens. Are the Zorki 1 and Fed 1 the same size? Are they all bottom feeders? Is there a model which has the older style look top plate but with a removable back?

What about the Zorki 3M? It seems highly recommended by a few here. Is that much bigger? Would that be the poor man's (or woman's) version of the Leica IIIF?

oh yah, I figure I might as well ask here if anyone has one of these they'd be willing to part with. Better tried and tested here than in the murky waters of ebay.
that'll just lead to more frustration...

The FED 2 has a removable back and is very close to a Leica in width and depth but is slightly higher thanks to the rewind knob. I've never handled a Zorki 3M. I like the FED 3 and the Zorki 4K but both are slightly larger than the FED 2. The FED 2 also has lugs to attach a strap, something the FED 3 and Zorki 4K lacks. I believe the FED 1 is a bottom loader, but I don't have one and can't be certain, but there are many web pages devoted to the FEDs. One site is http://www.russianplaza.com/FED-1-2-3-4-5-C-page2.html but I don't think it gives the measurements of the cameras.

Dick

 

[Kin Lau]

If you want an idea about the size, the Zorki 2C is on the left, Leica IIIa centre, Fed 2e on the right in the first pic.

In the 2nd, back row is Fed 2e (same as 1st pic), Bessa R and Kiev 4A
front row is Zorki 4K, Fed 5 and Yashica GS (same size as GSN).

Last shot is by height, Leica IIIa, Zorki 2C, Fed 2e, Bessa R, Kiev 4a, Zorki 4K, Fed 5 & Yashica GS at the back.

Since you already have the GSN, and you're possibly looking at these other cameras, it'll give you some frame of reference for size.

 

[back alley]

look at all those cameras.

now i don't feel so bad having 5 for myself.

joe

 

[GeneW]

Here's a closeup of a Zorki 3M with a slightly later-model Jupiter-8. I've owned only three FSU RF's: Fed2, Zorki 4K and Zorki 3M. The Fed was slightly smaller than the other two -- the 3M in the middle.

I like the 3M's lines -- it's similar to a Leica IIIf -- and note the lug straps. It's the one I kept.

Gene

 

[Kin Lau]

look at all those cameras.

now i don't feel so bad having 5 for myslef.

joe

I used to have all my RF's listed in my sig before the "Great sig wipeout of 2005" I don't think I'll try doing that again... too scary Thankfully Curt (wierdcollector) and Bill (Mattocks) are _way_ ahead of me

 

[kiev4a]

I have a number of FSU Leica copies--from the early 1930s FED 1, through the FED 5. The FED 1s and Zorki 1s are the same size as the Leica II. FEDs made prior to WWII had uncoated lenses and a non standard lens to film distance so they cane be problematic. The Postwar FED 1s and Zorki 1s are nice little cameras but to really get the most out of them may require shutter curtain replacement or at least a CLA. The Kiev Contax copies ofen have ribbon problems and the Zorki 3 curtains often need replacement, too. The Zorki 4K or a FED 5 is probably the best bet if you are looking for a camera that is likely to work right out of the box and keep working for awhile.

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend any of the FSU cameras to anyone who is unwilling use a tiny screwdriver and tweezers once in a while.

A Canon or Leica rangefinder from the 1950s (or maybe a Nicca) is much more likely to delived decent pictures with no repairs -- of course they cost more, too.

 

[phototone]

You should bear in mind that in FSU cameras, the only "copies" of Leica cameras are the Fed 1 and Zorki 1 models, made both pre and post WW2. These are almost exact copies of the pre-war Leica II, and are bottom loaders. All the more recent Fed's and Zorki's are removable back, and the body casing is somewhat larger to accommodate this feature.

You should also know that no Fed 1 or Zorki 1 has slow shutter speeds slower than 1/20th of a second. Neither does a Fed 2. It is only later versions that had the slow shutter speeds from 1 sec to 1/15th, in addition to the normal 1/20 to 1/500. Even then, not all the Fed's and Zorki's had the full gamut of slow speeds, just some of them. You should also consider that no First generation Fed or Zorki has flash sync. Of course neither does the Leica II, III, IIIc.

All of the Canon Leica-thread cameras from the 1950's and 60's had the full gamut of shutter speeds.

 

[kiev4a]

Does anyone know if someone still makes an adapter to use regular pc cords on the Canons with the "rail" connector? I had a Cannon II S2 for awhile and was in the process of building an adapter using parts from an old Canon flash gun. I sold the camera so I gave up the project.

 

[captainslack]

I used to have all my RF's listed in my sig before the "Great sig wipeout of 2005" I don't think I'll try doing that again... too scary Thankfully Curt (wierdcollector) and Bill (Mattocks) are _way_ ahead of me

I've personally seen Bill Mattock's collection. He's way ahead of some camera stores I've been in!

 

[Nickfed]

I really like the compact size of the Leica II and early IIIs, with a collapsible lens. Are the Zorki 1 and Fed 1 the same size? Are they all bottom feeders? Is there a model which has the older style look top plate but with a removable back?

What about the Zorki 3M? It seems highly recommended by a few here. Is that much bigger? Would that be the poor man's (or woman's) version of the Leica IIIF?

QUOTE]

The Fed and Zorki 1s are exactly the same dimensions as a Leica II. I understand they even weigh the same, 591g. They are both bottom loaders, just like a Leica. Despite fanciful rumours, they are also the only Sovcams that really look like a Leica. That is why they are the only Sovcams that are converted to fake Leicas.

After the first model, Fed and Zorki both started to relentlessly grow. That is one reason why I recently bought a Fed-1. The growth is all in the top deck and the knobs. Most of it is down to bad design, Fed-2's knobs for instance, but the single dial shutter with slow speeds got in there somewhere too.

If you want a good, holdable, even pocketable, casual daytime shooter, you can hardly go wrong with a FED-1. It's a joy to use. It looks, walks and quacks like Leica II. Apart from the rangefinder follower, I'm amazed by the build quality. The bottom loading is not hard, it's just different. They do not have flash synch. Later Fed-2s do. It seems they are hardly any larger, and some still come with a collapsing lens but I'm not sure you can get both the lens and the synch together......

Cheap, Soviet, and junk are not necessarily synonymous. I have had a Zorki-6 which served me well for forty years with no CLA, so I'm not too inclined to listen to pompous claptrap about "real" Leicas and "junk" Leicas. The FED-1 is indeed a Leica copy. It's also a genuine FED.

One of the reasons the FED is cheap is simply because of the Soviet way of doing things - like minimal overheads, minimal unnecessary development, and having somebody else do the R&D. One of the reasons why a Leica is so expensive is because there are people out there who are prepared to pay the money - but not many in the USSR.

I haven't had my FED long but it makes intersting comparison with the Zorki-6. It is more compact and much nicer to use. The supposed advantages of the more modern Zorki are insubstantial. Yes the swing door for loading is a better way to go but I have had it open by accident. That would never happen on a FED-1. The wind knob is a revelation, while the Zorki's lever wind is a bit famous for not being very nice. The Zorki viewfinder is marginally larger but not as nice as the FED. In practice the shorter rangefinder base seems just as accurate, and the FED is nicer to use. (It might be time to clean the Zorki!). The single v/rf window on the Zorki doesn't count for much if you use a 35mm lens. On the Zorki I often put a finger in front of the RF window. No need to do that with a FED-1! You have to be careful putting the standard lens into the FED-1. My Leitz Summar goes into it much more nicely. This was never an issue with the Zorki-6.

I got my FED off eBay from a guy named Mikhail Mats. I'm pretty sure it has been recently cleaned. I would buy from him again. Perhaps an earlier FED-2 with synch. or a Zorki 3M

The cachet of a Leica is undeniable. The FED-1 is a remarkably good camera.
Another option in this arena, is the Nicca 5, which is probably the camera Oscar Barnack should have designed in the first place.

 

[reagan]

my 2 ¢

my 2 ¢

I have no experience with Leicas of any sort. So I have no basis for comparing my FSUs there. And in fact did not purchase them because they were “copies” of anything. I only have a Zorki 1, Zorki 3M and Zorki 4, but I am perfectly happy with all three. Honestly, it would be hard to choose my favorite of the three if I could only have one. I probably shoot the 3M a little more than the 1 and the 1 a little more than the 4, but I now consider them a set that I’m not likely to ever break up.

Z1 ~ I like the nice size, very comfortable in my hands and in a fanny pack or small shoulder bag. Bottom loading became a non-issue after 3 or 4 rolls. Don’t really miss the slow shutter speeds when I use it. If I think I might want the slow speeds, I use…
Z3M ~ it too is comfortable, having a somewhat “cut-away” right side. Plus the larger viewfinder, a very positive addition; it also has removable back and strap lugs.
Z4 ~ all the above plus flash sync. & self-timer, but larger size and feel. This is a 1956 model, so it has the engraved numbers and strap lugs.

All three work very smoothly for me, but I’m a newbie in this area and can’t vouch for longevity of service. The 1 & 4 I got from the Bay and both are apparently in great shape, but IMO, the Bay is a risk; you might get a good one and you might not. They all seem to be described about the same.

As I have before, I’d recommend when you decide which model (or models, ha!) you desire, to check with Fedka or Oleg or another reputable dealer and see what they’ve got in stock. You’ll know exactly what you’re getting and it still won’t break the bank. I’ve dealt with Fedka and Oleg and both were right up front as to the condition of the item I was buying and actually seem conservative in their descriptions. My Zorki 3M came from Oleg and was much better than I expected; clean and ready to shoot right out of the box.

Again, I'm a newbie here with no experience with Leicas, or any other "copies" or FSUs, so this is just my 2 cents about my Zorkis ...

...so good luck. The search is fun too!

 

[tenebrae]

@ atelier7:

If you really like the look and size of a Leica III, you should indulge yourself and get a FED-1 or Zorki-1, or both. Get a "recent" model (50s) and not an earlier model. I have both a Zorki-1 and a FED-1, and I just love them! They're nice to shoot with, look at, and fondle. You can collapse the lens, tuck the camera away in a pocket and take it with you wherever you go.

And especially the uncoated lenses have character and give a distinct "flairy" charm to your pictures. When shooting portraits or buildings, you get very classic looking pictures, like they were taken half a century ago. Or you can use a hood and get rid of the flare, it's up to you.

And the sound these shutters make!

Get one! Now! I got my FED-1 from a seller named "confdntart", my Zorki-1 from "botik75" and both delivered quickly. I had to do some surgery on the Zorki, though, for the pressure plate had apparently been fitted the wrong way around in the course of a reparation. But these camera's are easy to work on.

 

[atelier7]

Thanks everyone for your replies and comments; especially for your wonderful pics.
I've just bought a fed 1 from 'confdntart' on the bay. now comes the waiting bit.

 

[satbunny]

I have a Zorki 4k for fun. It's painted red and it went back for repair day one.
It'll arrive back from the Ukraine one day and I will put it on a shelf as an ornament.
I paid 30 sterling for it.
I am happy 'cos I wanted a 50mm lens and to pay very little for it.

Buy a Leica or a Bessa. You can play with Russian cameras but you can never rely on them, believe me I had a series of Zeniths and Prakticas as a young man and they aren't worth the bother.

 

[Kin Lau]

I only have 2 FSU camera's that look "brand new", the Zorki 2C & 4. The 4 is glitchy, but the 2C works very well. All my other FSU camera's are quite well worn, and all work well. Some needed a bit of work first, but that's how I managed to get them cheaply The Fed 2 has quite a bit of brassing, but it's the smoothest. So, as the advice has been repeated on many sites, get one that looks like it's been used, at least you know it probably works.

 

[reagan]

I've just bought a fed 1 from 'confdntart' on the bay. now comes the waiting bit.

Maybe the waiting won't be that long. Of course there's no garantee, but I bought from confdntart, he communicated with me very friendly and promptly and I recieved the item in Illinois in 11 days. Good luck and... ENJOY!

 

[atelier7]

Hmmm, think I unintentionally started a small discussion about the pros and cons of buying FSU cameras.

I think there's always some risk involved in buying cameras secondhand, whether it be inexpensive or otherwise, unless perhaps if there is some sort of money back guarantee.

I have bought quite a few cameras in the past few months. massive case of GAS. I don't keep all of them, as it's often a case of trying to get a feel for whether I like the cameras or not.

I've had 3 FSU shooters - Fed 2, Kiev 4AM and Zorki 4k. (sidenote: Thanks again to everyone who helped me get an idea of the size of the Fed 1 with your picture and descriptions comparing it to the other FSU cameras. It helped!)

2 were purchased from the bay and 1 from Oleg. Ironically, the one from Oleg (who's work is highly regarded here) broke down rather quickly. Then again this was the Kiev 4AM, which i understand is more complicated and perhaps more prone to problems. So even a camera that's been checked out can still break down quite easily.

I've also had a new Bessa R which is a fantastic camera. Maybe the plastic construction doesn't feel like its a million dollars, then again it doesn't cost that much. Extremely good value I'd say. But there were reports about the rangefinders being knocked out of alignment rather easily. It's probably not as tough as some other cameras, I managed to put a scratch on the top quite quickly, but what's a camera if not for using. And I'd probably buy one again.

I've also had a Hexar AF bought 2nd hand. Despite being perhaps the most sophisticated high end camera I've owned so far, it's been the most problematic. I sold it without using it just because I couldn't quite figure out the functions. Anyhow, it was returned because the buyer pointed out the hotshoe was missing a piece so the flash sat loosely. Now the 2nd buyer wants to return it too because he claims the electronics are stuffed.

I'd still like to get a leica screwmount one of these days, and i'm certainly not saying that a leica is the same as a fed 1.

but whether it be a Leica, Fed, Hexar or Kiev... the lesson i've learnt is 'caveat emptor'....