Which P&S for low light subway shooting?

psychokiller said:
Nice shot...the noise is very acceptable (onscreen anyway). Is this taken with the original GRD? I believe the GRD II has less acceptable noise. True?
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The original, yes, in JPEG mode. The latest two were shot with the 40mm conversion lens, the rest are all 28mm. I haven't tried the GRD II, but I've heard that if you shoot RAW it should be fine. (One drawback with the original GRD is that RAW write times are terribly slow)

Bryce: Thanks! 🙂
 
Bryce said:
dmr- Color?!?!?
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Uh-huh, color. I've done color almost exclusively for the past 20 years or so.

Why?

Why not! 🙂

Must've been tricky.
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No, not really. The Fuji films are quite tolerant of available light and mixed light. They tell me (the ubiquitous "they") that the 4th Color Layer<tm> is what does the trick, and it's not just a bunch of marketing hype.

I've had great luck with the various Fuji 400-800-1600 color films in low-light and mixed light.

Most subways these days are lit by fluorescent lights, kinda close to daylight, actually.

(I still don't see how you could really get good subway images with a slow lens!)

Good results.
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Thanks {blush} 🙂
 
psychokiller said:
Here in Australia, photos in and around train stations are not usually permitted (not in Sydney anyway) and my Leica M7 is too conspicuous for this task.
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Hey psychokiller perhaps they don't allow YOU to take photos due to your user name.

But seriously, I have been taking photos around central station and the city circle for ages with a combination (at separate times) of different rangefinders and (shock horror) My Nikon D100 which is hardly discrete. Neither am I at 6' and I think the polite term is heavy set.
I have been doing so under the belief that it is my right to (not that we actually have "rights" per sé in this country; i.e. no "bill of rights"). Are there some new rules that you are aware of?
I based my belief not on my legal training (watching courtroom dramas on TV) but on an article on NSW photographers' rights, here is a link to the article (my copy was March 2007 - I see now that it was updated this month - I'll have to check what's changed) http://4020.net/words/photorights.php

Cheers and just get a really big camera
 
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Tarzak said:
Are there some new rules that you are aware of?
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If it's anything like it is here in the States, the regulations are poorly understood, even by sworn LEOs, often misinterpreted, and sporadically and overzealously enforced. A few notes ...

Back in the 1960s photography was officially not allowed in the NYC subway, and it was one of the things included on a very cartoonish "thou shalt not" poster in various stations. I did it anyway, and was never confronted. I used the Mamiya SD without flash.

That changed sometime after I moved away.

Nowadays, on paper at least, personal noncommercial photos ARE allowed in both the NYC and Chicago subways, with some restrictions, of course. Cops, station agents, and other employees don't always think it's allowed.

A couple years ago when I was taking some casual shots in the Chicago subway (Blue Line) a maintenance guy approached me and asked "are you the CTA photographer?" I was dressed business casual and had a conference badge around my neck, so I guess I might have passed for some kind of "official" photographer - LOL! I said I was not, and he told me that taking photos in the subway was "illegal".

Now before I left home, I checked, and there was a Rail Service Bulletin saying that it *WAS* allowed, but I didn't feel like educating him, so I feigned an apology, capped the lens, and moved on -- to another station and continued shooting. 🙂

Then there's the Las Vegas Monorail. I happened to be in town the day after the Monorail finally (re)opened, and I had a mostly-free afternoon, so I decided to shoot the system. Nobody stopped me, and I even asked a security guard if I could take his photo and he promptly snapped to attention and I snapped him. 🙂 Then ...

... I was at the Flamingo station, waiting for a train to pull out of the IP station, and with me at the end of the platform were two guys, one with a video camera and another with a huge honker flamethrower zoom lens on a SLR. (I was using the Olympus P&S.)

We were obviously waiting for the same thing to happen, and we struck up a conversation. The SLR guy asked me if I was at the IP station, and I said I was just there. He asked me if anybody said anything to me about taking photos and I told him no.

He said he was just up there and a security guard gave him the "illegal" song and dance, and said that they would turn him in to the "FBI and Homeland Security" if he continued.

This was the second day the Monorail was open, and there were quite a few people there taking photos openly. There were no "No Photos" signs, no circle-slash-camera icons or anything. Why this guy was singled out is beyond me!

Anyway, most of the photos of that shoot are here, if anybody cares:

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/lasvegas/

Wow, didn't intend this to be so long, sorry. 🙂
 
We have a similar situation w/the Washington DC Metro. Their official regulations permit photography (www.wmata.com/about/parp_docs/UseRegulations.pdf), i.e., regular still photography without tripods is "not regulated," but individual Metro employees & police are occasionally less friendly/more zealous.

dmr said:
If it's anything like it is here in the States, the regulations are poorly understood, even by sworn LEOs, often misinterpreted, and sporadically and overzealously enforced. A few notes ...

Back in the 1960s photography was officially not allowed in the NYC subway, and it was one of the things included on a very cartoonish "thou shalt not" poster in various stations. I did it anyway, and was never confronted. I used the Mamiya SD without flash.

That changed sometime after I moved away.

Nowadays, on paper at least, personal noncommercial photos ARE allowed in both the NYC and Chicago subways, with some restrictions, of course. Cops, station agents, and other employees don't always think it's allowed.
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Digital nothing beats the Fuji'ss Finepix F11 or F30 .
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I disagree. They're less noisy at 1600, but overly smoothed, to my eyes, and no RAW option. And the controls are typical P&S junk. I sold my F11 in frustration.

Nothing equals the Ricoh GRD and GX100 for user interface. Full manual control thru analog controls, not menus.
 
I recommend you pick up a black Hexar AF for performing stealth photography.

Although the aforementioned Fuji Natura is smaller it is definately louder than the Hexar AF. It's 24mm lens is also more contrasty than the Hexar's 35mm lens.

What's especially nice about the Hexar is that you can actually feel the focus, even in silent mode, allowing you know if you hit your target without looking at the camera.
 
I don't have any first hand experience, but if you're really looking for a point & shoot I would have to second the Fuji Natura. As far as I know it was a Japan only camera, but it was literally - literally - made for fuji's 1600 speed Natura film. From what I've heard, when you put a roll of 1600 into it, it goes into a special ambient light mode, where it kills the flash etc. good luck finding one though.
 
I have a Fuji F31fd, and ISO 800 is the realistic top speed. The Natura S would seem to be your best bet, but I don't know how much noise the motor winder generates. For discretion, the original Hexar Silver in stealth mode (slower but ultra quiet moto winding) is the camera to beat, but it's not that much smaller than a M7, and larger than a CL or CLE.
 
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Cell Phone Camera

Cell Phone Camera

I can't believe I'm recommending a cell phone camera. I don't even own one; my cell is a several-years-old non-camera model, luddite that I am. And I consider myself a dedicated film shooter. Heck, I've been known to lug pinhole box camera on tripods to transit areas in my city.

With all the internet chatter over folks with 'real' cameras being hassled more and more by law enforcement (even though, in most cases, actual laws weren't being broken), perhaps it's time that we started playing the game 'their' way. If they really think that folks with box cameras on tripods are potential t*rrorists, yet have no issue with cell-phone-armed teeny boppers, then let's go for it; if we are being accused, en masse as a class of people, of being snoops, then let's employ the most effective tool of the modern-day snoop.

The subway portrait project, conducted by Walker Evans in the mid-1940s, used the most concealable camera of reasonable image quality available in its day. Were he alive to recreate this project today, he very well may use a cell phone camera.

~Joe
 
The Fuji Natura is perfect for what you want to do, assuming you can live with the huge depth of field, which you can of course use to your advantage. Once you get the hang of it, you can shoot from the hip at waist level, which helps minimise rectilinear distortion, making it even more unobtrusive. The motor winder does make some noise, but unless the subway is empty it would be swallowed up enough by all the ambient noise to not be noticeable.

One more advantage is that the wide angle focal length makes it easy to hand hold at very low speeds. Example below is a cross-processed shot done with ISO100 film.
 

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Wow! What a great thread! Thanks to you all SO MUCH for your input.

I agree with the comments which suggest that it doesn't really matter what the official law is, as the station masters at the train station are not usually aware of them anyway..if they don't like what you're doing, they'll hassle you regardless of the official regulations.

I have decided to try my project with my M7. I only recently purchased this camera and well...it is a spectacular camera!..especially the viewfinder.... though it is black in a black Luigi half case which seems to attract attention for some reason, so it is not the most inconspicuous tool...

..but the M7 is my perfect woman...beautifully built, looks good, feels good in my hands and gives me hours of pleasure...what was I thinking baby, cheating on you with some cheap alternative!...No way baby! Leica? I Lova!
 
I think a Leica should do the trick ... Don't know if it is legal to shot in the subway in Japan but from time to time I can't resist .... 😎

Some examples:

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Also Hasselblad works ...

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Cheers,

maddoc
 
I guess the M7 works as a nice point 'n' shoot. And so much for the myth of black cameras being more inconspicuous! 😛

psychokiller said:
I have decided to try my project with my M7. I only recently purchased this camera and well...it is a spectacular camera!..especially the viewfinder.... though it is black in a black Luigi half case which seems to attract attention for some reason, so it is not the most inconspicuous tool... !
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Maddoc- love that second shot. Shallow depth of field really works here which you won't get with digital or a really wide lens.
 
Everyone has their favorite for this... and there are almost unlimted choices. My personal preference is my XA-4. It's 28mm f/3.5 lens, scale focusing and ability to take up to ISO 1600 film works quite well. When someone is paying too much attention to me I slide open the cover and make like I'm dialing a cell phone. Then during the process I'll get my photo. A little electrical tape also helps to cover both the manufacturer's name as well as cover the LED when I'm using the self-timer.
 
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