huddy
Well-known
I'm looking to try out Rodinal as a developer for various 120 films, mainly Neopan Acros 100. I checked freestyle and see that there are currently several flavors of Rodinal all based on various Rodinal recipes:
Adox Adolux
Foma Fomadon
Compard R09
Adox Adonal
Researching forums has suggested to me that Adox Adonal closely resembles the last production runs of Rodinal under the original name, but I found various postings talking about damage caused to certain films due to bean counter formula changes. Which version of Rodinal are you, the discriminating RFF'ers using with success? Do any of you have specific preferences or versions that should be avoided?
FWIW, I always mix my developer with distilled water so I shouldn't run into any issues in ph levels due to minerals from tap water.
Thank you,
Alan
Adox Adolux
Foma Fomadon
Compard R09
Adox Adonal
Researching forums has suggested to me that Adox Adonal closely resembles the last production runs of Rodinal under the original name, but I found various postings talking about damage caused to certain films due to bean counter formula changes. Which version of Rodinal are you, the discriminating RFF'ers using with success? Do any of you have specific preferences or versions that should be avoided?
FWIW, I always mix my developer with distilled water so I shouldn't run into any issues in ph levels due to minerals from tap water.
Thank you,
Alan
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fuji645
Established
They are all the same. I've used Fomodon RO9, and currently using the Adox product to process FP4 and Acros at the standard dilutions with great results. I believe that there are trademark issues relating to the use of the name Rodinal.
john_s
Well-known
Even Agfa Rodinal was not the same. I mean, there were changes over the years. The latest one before Agfa's demise one did not have the solid deposit that was responsible for its legendary long life.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
John you mean the crystals? They are in the last batch made up before Agfa's demise (I still have a bottle) and the later A&O version and the RO9 one shot versions– all produced at the Connect-Compard Chemical Werk Vaihingen/Enz Germany.
some info here:
http://photo-utopia.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/in-praise-of-rodinal-part-1.html
To the OP–Your list is of chemicals all made by the old Agfa factory now owned by Compard AG all to the same formula. What you are seeing is just branding, they are all the same as the Agfa Rodinal at the time the company went bust.
some info here:
http://photo-utopia.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/in-praise-of-rodinal-part-1.html
To the OP–Your list is of chemicals all made by the old Agfa factory now owned by Compard AG all to the same formula. What you are seeing is just branding, they are all the same as the Agfa Rodinal at the time the company went bust.
john_s
Well-known
That's interesting Photo Smith. I don't use Rodinal anymore. I was basing my comment above on a post at the old rec.photo.darkroom site (was good, now messed up by spam) by Michael Gudzinowicz who is/was an experienced photographer and a chemist.
"BTW, I noticed that the "new" Agfa Rodinal didn't contain the
precipitate which the old stuff once did. It required quite a bit of
bisulfite to back titrate to the "correct" pH, but it is stable there.
I wonder if Agfa tossed in excess base to keep the machinery from
clogging up or to save a step, and ended up tossing out the underlying
rationale for the formula? (Final score: bean counters 1, photogs, 0.)"
I have a small plastic bottle of Rodinal unopened made by Agfa at Leverkusen. I might tip it out and see if crystals exist there. I'm not likely to use it.
"BTW, I noticed that the "new" Agfa Rodinal didn't contain the
precipitate which the old stuff once did. It required quite a bit of
bisulfite to back titrate to the "correct" pH, but it is stable there.
I wonder if Agfa tossed in excess base to keep the machinery from
clogging up or to save a step, and ended up tossing out the underlying
rationale for the formula? (Final score: bean counters 1, photogs, 0.)"
I have a small plastic bottle of Rodinal unopened made by Agfa at Leverkusen. I might tip it out and see if crystals exist there. I'm not likely to use it.
Athiril
Established
Adonal and Compard R09 are the same iirc, both should be the 2005 formula.
APH09 is the pre-war formula. The Rodinal most people are familiar with and know as Rodinal is the modern version.
I don't know about Fomadon R09.
I would use Adonal.
APH09 is the pre-war formula. The Rodinal most people are familiar with and know as Rodinal is the modern version.
I don't know about Fomadon R09.
I would use Adonal.
huddy
Well-known
Thanks for all of the replies. I did some digging over at apug (don't know why I didn't think of that earlier) and saw an actual ADOX representative posting that Adonal is 100% the same as Agfa Rodinal. They buy it in 200 liter buckets from the old Agfa factory and bottle it using the same bottles that Agfa once used.
Looks like I'll be using Adonal, but I'm curious about APH09, although I don't know how good it would be with Acros...
Looks like I'll be using Adonal, but I'm curious about APH09, although I don't know how good it would be with Acros...
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Free Bottle of Rodinal (Boston)
Free Bottle of Rodinal (Boston)
For readers of this thread in Boston: I have a fresh bottle of Adonal which I will give free to anyone who will drop by to pick it up. Drop me a PM here and I will respond. Misc other darkroom chemicals as well.
(Rodinal is caustic, difficult to ship, and should be handled with care.)
Free Bottle of Rodinal (Boston)
For readers of this thread in Boston: I have a fresh bottle of Adonal which I will give free to anyone who will drop by to pick it up. Drop me a PM here and I will respond. Misc other darkroom chemicals as well.
(Rodinal is caustic, difficult to ship, and should be handled with care.)
huddy
Well-known
Erm. I have in aunt in Boston. Too bad I never visit...
Photo_Smith
Well-known
I have been using Rodinal since the 1970's my first bottle was a brown glass one, which looked like a medicine bottle.
I have seen no difference either sensiometric or in chemical properties in the versions I have used it seems to have a p.h of >11.
They all form a clear crystal precipitate even in the most recent version I have (R09 One shot from Compard)
As far as I know there is only one factory the one owned by Connect/Compard in Vaihingen Enz that makes the stuff, the confusion comes from the loss of the Rodinal™
I used a 8/10ths empty bottle just last night, it does have some crystal formation at the bottom and is the colour of Cola–seems to be active enough.
All versions as far as I know are made in the same factory (the one ringed in the photo)
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k__43
Registered Film User
I use Adonal, which works exactly like the last bottle of Rodinal I bought from Agfa.
clayne
shoot film or die
ADOX Adonal - and you're supporting a good company by purchasing from them.
Joao
Negativistic forever
About the Precipitate
About the Precipitate
Question about the precipitate that settles on the bottle's bottom:
Should I make any attempt to dissolve it again (shaking, stirring, whatever)?
Or should I leave where it is - and use only the liquid developer above it ??
Thank you
Joao
About the Precipitate
Question about the precipitate that settles on the bottle's bottom:
Should I make any attempt to dissolve it again (shaking, stirring, whatever)?
Or should I leave where it is - and use only the liquid developer above it ??
Thank you
Joao
john_s
Well-known
It is reputed to preserve the developer, so the standard advice has been to leave it in. Pour the developer gently to avoid stirring it up.
john_s
Well-known
I have just emptied the small bottle of Rodinal (Agfa Leverkusen, plastic) that I mentioned in a post above, and there was no precipitate in it.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
John,
whatever you have seen written Rodinal doesn't have to have crystals, their apperence in the developer is not a 'guarantee' that you have real Rodinal so a lack of them isn't indicative of poorer quality versions.
When making Rodinal the Paraminophenol (which is partly crystaline in form) has sodium hydroxide added very slowly which clears the precipitate to form a liquid.
Sometimes during storage the paraminophenol combines with free radicals to form a crystal form of indophenol.
The process of the formation of the crystal is a process called Ostwald ripening which causes the crystals to grow over time and needs certain conditions to occur.
Some say you can warm up the liquid and try to disolve them but I just leave them. I've never noticed any changes to density (read with a Macbeth densitometer) between older Rodinal with or without crystals. Furthermore the p.h seems relatively stable, even in a bottle that looks like cola.
Rodinal doesn't last forever though and I'd say in my experience it rarely (if ever) fails. I'm not convinced that somehow the factory has 'cheapened' the developer by taking out ingreadients; my last batch had the crystals this current one (R09 one shot) doesn't but certainly is identical in chemical properties and photographic action.
The quote you posted has an error he says he needed to add bisulfate to bring up the p.h, the Rodinal recipe uses potassium metabisulfite as a preservative not a buffer, the p.h is made strongly alkaline by adding sodium hydroxide.
Oh and I have an almost empty bottle still with a p.h of >11 that I developed a roll of film in last night--the bottle has been open over one year.
It's a wonderful developer, with lovely photographic properties not for all work but certainly a large subset of my own.
whatever you have seen written Rodinal doesn't have to have crystals, their apperence in the developer is not a 'guarantee' that you have real Rodinal so a lack of them isn't indicative of poorer quality versions.
When making Rodinal the Paraminophenol (which is partly crystaline in form) has sodium hydroxide added very slowly which clears the precipitate to form a liquid.
Sometimes during storage the paraminophenol combines with free radicals to form a crystal form of indophenol.
The process of the formation of the crystal is a process called Ostwald ripening which causes the crystals to grow over time and needs certain conditions to occur.
Some say you can warm up the liquid and try to disolve them but I just leave them. I've never noticed any changes to density (read with a Macbeth densitometer) between older Rodinal with or without crystals. Furthermore the p.h seems relatively stable, even in a bottle that looks like cola.
Rodinal doesn't last forever though and I'd say in my experience it rarely (if ever) fails. I'm not convinced that somehow the factory has 'cheapened' the developer by taking out ingreadients; my last batch had the crystals this current one (R09 one shot) doesn't but certainly is identical in chemical properties and photographic action.
The quote you posted has an error he says he needed to add bisulfate to bring up the p.h, the Rodinal recipe uses potassium metabisulfite as a preservative not a buffer, the p.h is made strongly alkaline by adding sodium hydroxide.
Oh and I have an almost empty bottle still with a p.h of >11 that I developed a roll of film in last night--the bottle has been open over one year.
It's a wonderful developer, with lovely photographic properties not for all work but certainly a large subset of my own.
john_s
Well-known
PhotoSmith, I don't disagree with your elucidation above. There has been a lot written about what is the "true" Rodinal and I'm sure they all work. Given that it has been around since 1891 it would be surprising if there had not been some variations in its manufacture. The post that I copied said that he used bisulphite (not bisulphate) to bring the pH down, not up.
There are many articles describing that the final titration point is reached when a few crystals remain.
As an interesting aside, here in Australia the official MSDS documents have more detail than in most countries, and the Agfa Australia MSDS for Rodinal concentrate shows potassium bromide as well as EDTA. There are people who swear that Rodinal didn't need bromide. I don't know the truth of the matter, but I find it all very interesting.
Either way, I agree that it's a useful developer, and that it doesn't last forever.
There are many articles describing that the final titration point is reached when a few crystals remain.
As an interesting aside, here in Australia the official MSDS documents have more detail than in most countries, and the Agfa Australia MSDS for Rodinal concentrate shows potassium bromide as well as EDTA. There are people who swear that Rodinal didn't need bromide. I don't know the truth of the matter, but I find it all very interesting.
Either way, I agree that it's a useful developer, and that it doesn't last forever.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
John
The original 1891 Rodinal changed many times in the the pre war period, the 'original' (published pre war) formula surfaced as ORWO RO9 normally with different mixing instructions 1:20 and 1:40 and is known as developer number 9 (Hence ROdinal 9)in Agfa's pre war formula book.
The early version had a base of p-Aminophenol hydrochloride using sulphite and carbonate which is different from later versions.
During the war Agfa added Potassium Sulphite and also Potassium Bromide to give better results with roll films (used by the military), this version was published by the RAF in 1946 (GC Brock) H.M.S.O
p-Aminophenol 5%
Potassium Sulphite 19%
Potassium Hydroxide 1.85%
Potassium Bromide 0.77%
The last published change was in 1964 when Agfa started using slightly more Hydroxide and a slight reduction p-Aminophenol than the previous formulae in order to provide better buffering and possibly to reduce re-crystallisation.
Agfa Rodinal should have an S.G 1.38 a p.H of 14 in concentrate and >11 in working solution.
The current formula is the same or very similar to the 1960's formula; Potassium Sulphite is the main ingredient somewhere around 344g/litre mark, it certainly uses Potassium Bromide in a very small amount but doesn't require it in order to work.
Most of this is idle internet chatter though; as all current versions of Rodinal come from the same factory and use the same formula which works very well in practical use.
The original 1891 Rodinal changed many times in the the pre war period, the 'original' (published pre war) formula surfaced as ORWO RO9 normally with different mixing instructions 1:20 and 1:40 and is known as developer number 9 (Hence ROdinal 9)in Agfa's pre war formula book.
The early version had a base of p-Aminophenol hydrochloride using sulphite and carbonate which is different from later versions.
During the war Agfa added Potassium Sulphite and also Potassium Bromide to give better results with roll films (used by the military), this version was published by the RAF in 1946 (GC Brock) H.M.S.O
p-Aminophenol 5%
Potassium Sulphite 19%
Potassium Hydroxide 1.85%
Potassium Bromide 0.77%
The last published change was in 1964 when Agfa started using slightly more Hydroxide and a slight reduction p-Aminophenol than the previous formulae in order to provide better buffering and possibly to reduce re-crystallisation.
Agfa Rodinal should have an S.G 1.38 a p.H of 14 in concentrate and >11 in working solution.
The current formula is the same or very similar to the 1960's formula; Potassium Sulphite is the main ingredient somewhere around 344g/litre mark, it certainly uses Potassium Bromide in a very small amount but doesn't require it in order to work.
Most of this is idle internet chatter though; as all current versions of Rodinal come from the same factory and use the same formula which works very well in practical use.
timor
Well-known
You can't, Rodinal is no more available (unless you find some old bottle somewhere), it stopped with the death of AGFA. AGFA never made the formula public or license Rodinal. What you can buy are versions of Calbe09 under variety of names, but that's OK, without sensitometry on scientific level you will see no difference between them. Just go ahead with whatever you have, good luck and have a fun.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
+1 on this. Besides having put out with a new B&W film lately (Silvermax) Adox is getting quite close to bringing back Polywarmtone.
Good things come from this little factory.