estudleon
Member
Hi to all.
I want to buy my first russian RF.
I had Leica M 2, 3 and 4. Now in srl world in M42.
Which to buy? A FED? A ZORKI? Help me, please.
I'm all ears (and eyes too).
Thanks in advantage.
I want to buy my first russian RF.
I had Leica M 2, 3 and 4. Now in srl world in M42.
Which to buy? A FED? A ZORKI? Help me, please.
I'm all ears (and eyes too).
Thanks in advantage.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
A good cheap habit!
A good cheap habit!
There are loads of different ones out there, and fortunately, they are usually as cheap as dirt, so if you get hooked on them, it won't break the bank. The biggest concern is that there is a large quality variation between examples of the same model, in any case much more than between different models. So given all that, you are probably well advised to buy one based on convenience and useability, and for those reasons, I would suggest a Fed 2. If you get a good one you will have quite a nice camera. It has a removeable back, a long base rangefinder, a single viewing window with decent eyepiece relief and a good range of dioptre control. Also, it looks great.
Some of the earlier FSU cameras were slavish copies of a Leica II, but no Russian camera I have ever seen is even remotely in the same quality category as a Leica. The later ones, the Zorki 4's and 5's for example, are, to be charitible, rather homely. I would not recommend buying one of the FSU cameras with slow speeds- they are notoriously troublesome. The Fed 2 doesn't try too hard to look like a Leica, and is quite nice of its own right.
When you buy any FSU camera, try to get some kind of guarantee of decent performance when you run a test film through it. You want to get one that works properly the first time. Unless you are a competent camera mechanic yourself, you will usually find that it costs more than the camera is worth to get it fixed.:bang:
About lenses, you can use most any LSM lens. The camera pictured here has a Jupiter 8, availabile for very little money, but again quality is a crapshoot.
There are certainly lots of more costly things to start collecting, as the owner of a bunch of M Leicas certainly knows, and with one of these nice old beasts, you won't have to worry too much about getting it banged up when you go somewhere with it. Enjoy!
I have been trying to attach a picture of a Fed 2, but the system is not co-operating. I'll try to send it in a separate note.
Cheers,
Dez
A good cheap habit!
There are loads of different ones out there, and fortunately, they are usually as cheap as dirt, so if you get hooked on them, it won't break the bank. The biggest concern is that there is a large quality variation between examples of the same model, in any case much more than between different models. So given all that, you are probably well advised to buy one based on convenience and useability, and for those reasons, I would suggest a Fed 2. If you get a good one you will have quite a nice camera. It has a removeable back, a long base rangefinder, a single viewing window with decent eyepiece relief and a good range of dioptre control. Also, it looks great.
Some of the earlier FSU cameras were slavish copies of a Leica II, but no Russian camera I have ever seen is even remotely in the same quality category as a Leica. The later ones, the Zorki 4's and 5's for example, are, to be charitible, rather homely. I would not recommend buying one of the FSU cameras with slow speeds- they are notoriously troublesome. The Fed 2 doesn't try too hard to look like a Leica, and is quite nice of its own right.
When you buy any FSU camera, try to get some kind of guarantee of decent performance when you run a test film through it. You want to get one that works properly the first time. Unless you are a competent camera mechanic yourself, you will usually find that it costs more than the camera is worth to get it fixed.:bang:
About lenses, you can use most any LSM lens. The camera pictured here has a Jupiter 8, availabile for very little money, but again quality is a crapshoot.
There are certainly lots of more costly things to start collecting, as the owner of a bunch of M Leicas certainly knows, and with one of these nice old beasts, you won't have to worry too much about getting it banged up when you go somewhere with it. Enjoy!
I have been trying to attach a picture of a Fed 2, but the system is not co-operating. I'll try to send it in a separate note.
Cheers,
Dez
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
ItsReallyDarren
That's really me
I second the advice for a Fed 2. It's quite the handsome camera. A Leica its not, it has its own plain simplistic charms. It's also quite compact and with a collapsible lens can fit easily in small spaces.
If your looking for something outside screw mount systems a Kiev might be worth looking at. Quite sturdy and has a solid feel in your hands. It takes some getting used to learning how to hold it but nothing 5 minutes of fumbling can't fix.
As for where to purchase one, where are you located? In the US a popular dealer is Fedka which is located in New York. He also gives warranties with his cameras so you can make sure they are working well.
If your looking for something outside screw mount systems a Kiev might be worth looking at. Quite sturdy and has a solid feel in your hands. It takes some getting used to learning how to hold it but nothing 5 minutes of fumbling can't fix.
As for where to purchase one, where are you located? In the US a popular dealer is Fedka which is located in New York. He also gives warranties with his cameras so you can make sure they are working well.
john341
camera user
Zorki 3S is tops (most Zorkis are) and the Kiev early models are great. The Leningrad is a knockout but in my opinion, the FEDs are a bit on the rough side. I have just returned from a few days in New South Wales and took some nice negs with my Kiev 4..they are great so long as you don't get a later model (post 1970) which can be a bit rubbishy...bonne chance
ludoo
Established
I have a FED-2 and, while I like its solid feel and operation, I absolutely cannot stand its small squinty viewfinder. I find a Zorki 4 much more usable, with a much larger and bright viewfinder. A Zorki 3 or 3M would cost a bit more, but imho is probably the most beautiful FSU camera ever produced.
I don't own a Kiev, but briefly handled a 4A and found it a nice camera.
I don't own a Kiev, but briefly handled a 4A and found it a nice camera.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
You've a wide choice at all sorts of prices. The early Fed 1's looked like a Leica II (there's one on ebay - look for item 260431932932 for example). Later on they changed the shutter surround button and both Feds and Zorki 1's look the same.
By the model 2 Fed had gone in one direction and Zorki another. The Fed 2 being a very usable camera, imo, and the Zorki 2's looking like a Mk 2 version of the Zorki 1 (meaning same general style).
I think the 3's and 4's started to lose their charm and the Fed 3 has a notorious eyepiece surround that scratched glasses - if you wear them. If you wear glasses it's worth noting that the Fed 2 has an excellent range of adjustment at the eyepiece.
Alll of them come with a pretty good 50-ish standard lens and the view-finder is designed for that lens and nothing else. So you'll need a turret vf for any other lens.
The collapsible lenses come in coated and uncoated versions, dirt cheap for the performance. Even better is the Jupiter-8 (f/2) but the front turns as you focus and so you'll then need a vented Leica M style hood. (But getting a hood and filters for the other collapsible lenses is difficult, compared to the dirt cheap Chinese copies of the [?]12858.)
So Fed 1 or Zorki 1 or 2 for style and that antique look and Fed 2 with Jupiter-8 for a very usable camera.
Don't firget that they'll all be very old; 70, 60 or 50 years or so. So condition will be a matter of luck. Oleg seems best for a complete overhaul and that might just be advisable before you even put a film in it.
BTW, they are bottom loaders; you'll wreck a film learning how to do that trick...
Have fun.
Regards, David
PS (Edit) People will warn you about the quality of them varying - if they are polite - but I'd say that they are no worse than any other make of camera for their age. I've several Leicas waiting for some expensive repairs that I just can't afford. And I've had a Leica standard lens returned to me as beyond repair. I'm sure many others have but no one ever warns people about old Leicas the way they warn you off old Feds and Zorkis. All of them are machines with parts that rust, lubrication that dries up and owners who neglect or tinker with them...
There's a neglected Leica on ebay at the moment (item 200354425614). Have a look at it, if you want a shock.
You've a wide choice at all sorts of prices. The early Fed 1's looked like a Leica II (there's one on ebay - look for item 260431932932 for example). Later on they changed the shutter surround button and both Feds and Zorki 1's look the same.
By the model 2 Fed had gone in one direction and Zorki another. The Fed 2 being a very usable camera, imo, and the Zorki 2's looking like a Mk 2 version of the Zorki 1 (meaning same general style).
I think the 3's and 4's started to lose their charm and the Fed 3 has a notorious eyepiece surround that scratched glasses - if you wear them. If you wear glasses it's worth noting that the Fed 2 has an excellent range of adjustment at the eyepiece.
Alll of them come with a pretty good 50-ish standard lens and the view-finder is designed for that lens and nothing else. So you'll need a turret vf for any other lens.
The collapsible lenses come in coated and uncoated versions, dirt cheap for the performance. Even better is the Jupiter-8 (f/2) but the front turns as you focus and so you'll then need a vented Leica M style hood. (But getting a hood and filters for the other collapsible lenses is difficult, compared to the dirt cheap Chinese copies of the [?]12858.)
So Fed 1 or Zorki 1 or 2 for style and that antique look and Fed 2 with Jupiter-8 for a very usable camera.
Don't firget that they'll all be very old; 70, 60 or 50 years or so. So condition will be a matter of luck. Oleg seems best for a complete overhaul and that might just be advisable before you even put a film in it.
BTW, they are bottom loaders; you'll wreck a film learning how to do that trick...
Have fun.
Regards, David
PS (Edit) People will warn you about the quality of them varying - if they are polite - but I'd say that they are no worse than any other make of camera for their age. I've several Leicas waiting for some expensive repairs that I just can't afford. And I've had a Leica standard lens returned to me as beyond repair. I'm sure many others have but no one ever warns people about old Leicas the way they warn you off old Feds and Zorkis. All of them are machines with parts that rust, lubrication that dries up and owners who neglect or tinker with them...
There's a neglected Leica on ebay at the moment (item 200354425614). Have a look at it, if you want a shock.
Last edited:
wolves3012
Veteran
Take a look at the sticky thread "how to select an FSU" at the top of this sub-forum. That will give you a guide on what features the various models have (or don't have). Decide what's important and what's not and go from there. I don't agree that the models with slow speeds are less reliable - IF they are serviced, as any mechanical camera should be.
One thing that most people agree on is that older models are generally better made. The last FED 4 and 5 models and Zorkis like the 4K can be quite poor and often have issues not related to lack of servicing alone. On the other hand, the very early models are quite old and rare and probably not the ideal users. My own experience also says that Zorkis are slightly better made than FEDs from the same period but it's still hit-and-miss.
I'll agree with the suggestions of a FED 2, it's generally reckoned to be one of the toughest and most reliable of the FSUs. However, if I had to pick ONE model to keep I'd be seriously tempted to keep a Zorki 5. It shares the FED 2's long-base RF but it has a much brighter VF and a lever-wind (which can be troublesome if not serviced, however). If you can't stomach the bottom-loading of it then just get a Zorki 6 instead, almost the same but has a hinged back.
Oh and don't forget the Kievs. They're an acquired taste and you really need to look for a serviced or guaranteed one but they are hard to beat in terms of features.
One thing that most people agree on is that older models are generally better made. The last FED 4 and 5 models and Zorkis like the 4K can be quite poor and often have issues not related to lack of servicing alone. On the other hand, the very early models are quite old and rare and probably not the ideal users. My own experience also says that Zorkis are slightly better made than FEDs from the same period but it's still hit-and-miss.
I'll agree with the suggestions of a FED 2, it's generally reckoned to be one of the toughest and most reliable of the FSUs. However, if I had to pick ONE model to keep I'd be seriously tempted to keep a Zorki 5. It shares the FED 2's long-base RF but it has a much brighter VF and a lever-wind (which can be troublesome if not serviced, however). If you can't stomach the bottom-loading of it then just get a Zorki 6 instead, almost the same but has a hinged back.
Oh and don't forget the Kievs. They're an acquired taste and you really need to look for a serviced or guaranteed one but they are hard to beat in terms of features.
Last edited:
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
I agree with the advice given so far but I will suggest that the first question you should consider is not which camera but, rather, which seller.
The cameras are potentially all good but the variation in individual example is fairly extreme so I think it more important to buy from a good dealer so you can be a bit more sure of getting a well working example of which ever camera you decide on for your first one.
As mentioned, FEDKA here in the US is a good dealer. I have also been happy with Oleg Khalyavin--he owns OKVintage Cameras--if you look at his site and don't see what you want, email him with a specific request. And Valdis at http://www.rus-camera.com/ is another dealer I like quite a lot.
As to specific cameras, the choices are many and you will need to think about what features are important to you. And then you can look for the cameras that match your desires the best. For example, I like having a big viewfinder and strap lugs so I ended up with the Zorki 3m as my main FSU camera.
If you still have the Leicas, you might consider the screw mount FSU cameras since you will be ablle to use those lenses ( with an adapter ) on your Leicas.
Welcome aboard, it is a fun ride!
Rob
The cameras are potentially all good but the variation in individual example is fairly extreme so I think it more important to buy from a good dealer so you can be a bit more sure of getting a well working example of which ever camera you decide on for your first one.
As mentioned, FEDKA here in the US is a good dealer. I have also been happy with Oleg Khalyavin--he owns OKVintage Cameras--if you look at his site and don't see what you want, email him with a specific request. And Valdis at http://www.rus-camera.com/ is another dealer I like quite a lot.
As to specific cameras, the choices are many and you will need to think about what features are important to you. And then you can look for the cameras that match your desires the best. For example, I like having a big viewfinder and strap lugs so I ended up with the Zorki 3m as my main FSU camera.
If you still have the Leicas, you might consider the screw mount FSU cameras since you will be ablle to use those lenses ( with an adapter ) on your Leicas.
Welcome aboard, it is a fun ride!
Rob
estudleon
Member
Thanks to DEZ, DARREN, JOHN B, LUDOO, DAVID, WOLVES 3012.
I'm living in Argentina. Don't trust in personnel of customs here. My experiences didn't be goods. Son I buy here.
The cuestion is around the Fed 2, Zorki 3, 4 or 5 and Kiev 4-A.
Thanks again guys.
I'm living in Argentina. Don't trust in personnel of customs here. My experiences didn't be goods. Son I buy here.
The cuestion is around the Fed 2, Zorki 3, 4 or 5 and Kiev 4-A.
Thanks again guys.
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
I should soon get a FED 2. I chose this model specially for use with 85/90 lenses because of its long-base R/F. In all probability the accessory finder will need to be filed so as to fit despite the ridge in front of the accessory shoe.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
A couple more
A couple more
Here are the interesting looking Zorki 3 and the motor-drive Leningrad, which is no doubt the biggest and heaviest LTM camera ever. I must admit that the slow speeds do work on both of them, but I still like my Fed 2 best.
A couple more
Here are the interesting looking Zorki 3 and the motor-drive Leningrad, which is no doubt the biggest and heaviest LTM camera ever. I must admit that the slow speeds do work on both of them, but I still like my Fed 2 best.
Attachments
estudleon
Member
Thanks Rob, Payasam, Dez (again).
Rino.
Rino.
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
OK, I can understand your preference to buying local and if the ones you find are well working, then it becomes which one will suit you best.
As I mentioned, the Zorki 3m is what I ended with after trying a few
different ones. If you are able to go to a shop and handle some different cameras that should lead you to the one you want pretty quickly--or maybe you have some friends who have some of the FSU cameras that you could try.
If not, I would suggest the FED2 as a good place to start. I wanted to like the one I had but with my eye glasses and my vision, the VF was not too good for me. None of your mentioned cameras are bad so it is hard to give you a definite answer.
But none of them are very expensive, probably the Zorki 3 will be the most, the FED2 the least, and the others somewhere in between.
Good Hunting!
Rob
PS: David, I really do like the FSU cameras but I also think that because of when they were being produced and that they were not being produced for a truly competitive marketplace, the quality control some times lost out to production quotas. Add to that seeming willingness of people to do their own work on them since and , yes, I do think that the quality of them varies much more than a comparable Leica. Personally, I don't expect a Leica made the same year as my Zorki--1955--to be any better working now if it has never been serviced but I do expect that said Leica would be much closer to all the other Leicas made that year.
R
As I mentioned, the Zorki 3m is what I ended with after trying a few
different ones. If you are able to go to a shop and handle some different cameras that should lead you to the one you want pretty quickly--or maybe you have some friends who have some of the FSU cameras that you could try.If not, I would suggest the FED2 as a good place to start. I wanted to like the one I had but with my eye glasses and my vision, the VF was not too good for me. None of your mentioned cameras are bad so it is hard to give you a definite answer.
But none of them are very expensive, probably the Zorki 3 will be the most, the FED2 the least, and the others somewhere in between.
Good Hunting!
Rob
PS: David, I really do like the FSU cameras but I also think that because of when they were being produced and that they were not being produced for a truly competitive marketplace, the quality control some times lost out to production quotas. Add to that seeming willingness of people to do their own work on them since and , yes, I do think that the quality of them varies much more than a comparable Leica. Personally, I don't expect a Leica made the same year as my Zorki--1955--to be any better working now if it has never been serviced but I do expect that said Leica would be much closer to all the other Leicas made that year.
R
julio1fer
Well-known
Estudleon, I live across the river from you. There used to be a few old camera stores in a gallery in Buenos Aires, in Corrientes street at about Esmeralda, with the occasional FSU model thrown in.
State of the camera may be more important than brand and model. Choose first the lens mount (LTM or Contax-Kiev), then the camera model that you like.
State of the camera may be more important than brand and model. Choose first the lens mount (LTM or Contax-Kiev), then the camera model that you like.
bgb
Well-known
Another vote for the FED 2, nice camera to hold and capable of producing excellent results if you do your part
I was lucky as mine was mint and it had a loving owner ... condition is more important than the brand
I like the look of the Kiev without the attached light meter, sorry i have no experience of using one ...yet
I was lucky as mine was mint and it had a loving owner ... condition is more important than the brand
I like the look of the Kiev without the attached light meter, sorry i have no experience of using one ...yet
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi, I wish I could answer that but my 2d worth is based on my experience of Leicas and Feds and Zorkis. I've bought good looking Leicas and found them very crunchy until overhauled at enormous expense. And I've bashed and battered Zorkis that worked well but had the usual pin holes in the blinds and so on.
All three makes feel and sound OK to me and I'd love to get all of them overhauled and repaired and then I'd be a step nearer the truth.
But that brings me to another problem, tolk to some repairers and their attitude is that they'd do it if it was a Leica but what a waste of money it would be with a Fed or Zorki. So I wonder if that colours people's experiences. Obviously I can go to Oleg but the list of cameras to be done is overwhelming in terms of cash and yet I could count them on my fingers.
I was talking to the only person I've ever met who was in a position to know about them and he said that the optics of the FSU ones are made to very tight tolerances and on a par with the originals. This based on proper bench tests.
What would be nice is to get my hands on a hundred or so and take them all to bits and start measuring things with a micrometre. I can think of several parts that could be measured that wouldn't be affected by wear. Trouble is the tests wouldn't be meaningful without a few hundred to test from each year. And that's a tall order.
Also, I'm inclined to agree with Mark Twain who said that once you've a reputation for getting up at the crack of dawn you can spend the rest of your life sleeping until noon...
Also, I often get to frame 29 or so on the film and quickly change lenses and repeat the shot so that I get a Summ - icron/itar, Elmar, Voigtländer and all the Industar versions of the picture. There's not much difference but I've yet to do it with Kodachrome (sigh).
I guess the jury will still be out on this when we're all 6ft under.
Regards, David
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
I have to agree with much of what you've said. Though I can only disagree with those people saying that the FEDs or Zorkis are not worth repairing. And, once the cameras and lenses are "blueprinted"--brought back to design spec, they are mostly lovely pieces of gear.
As for the cost of repairs, they are likely to be as much as the same work on a Leica, but the initial cost of the cameras is enough less than the Leica that the total cost will be less than a Leica and the same service. It still seems good value to me.
Rob
wolves3012
Veteran
I'm with you on this one but just to add that "worth repairing" does need qualifying - worth it to whom? It's worth it to some and not to others...
I guess I'm lucky. Most of the ones I own were in fair shape when bought and needed just minor work. I've had to re-curtain a couple and CLA most but luckily I have the tools and skill to DIY them, so the cost has been mostly my time.
Unfortunately, most of the FSUs are common and cheap, so people will continue to junk them when the curtains fail or other easy repairs. Until they become truly rare that's not going to change and that may not happen before film becomes an exotic and expensive commodity. That could mean the few remaining by then will end their time as mere ornaments and museum pieces.
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Fair enough! I should have been more explicit: worth it to me.
And I don't really have the time nor the skills to do my own--though I may be attempting a VF alignment on a Zorki 4 I bought a while back; the camera is other wise very good and apparently didn't fare well on the trip across the Atlantic to me (I think the post office was using it for soccer pracrice along the way!
)--so I am very glad to have found a few people who are willing and able to do the needed at a good price. And I have been fairly picky about which cameras I have bought. And who I got them from.Rob