White Specs / Spots: Help required

Photon42

Photon42

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Sep 3, 2007
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Folks

I'm doing BW development for quite a while now. No matter what I seem to do, from time to time, I get these annoying white spots, and it really drives me crazy now. I figure it is something "chemical" ...

:bang::bang::bang:

p470743900-5.jpg


:bang::bang::bang:

Film is either Fuji ACROS or Neopan 400, always XTOL 1+1. XTOL is properly stored in dark bottles in the refrigerator.

I use filtered water for everything, use fresh fixer every time, use a Hypo clear, water the film according to the Ilford method (inversions 10x,20x,40x,80x), use a final bath in distilled water plus Ilfotol. Film is hang dry in a small bathroom with shower ran a couple of minutes in advance.

I'm running out of ideas. Sometimes they show up, sometimes they don't.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks
Ivo
 
Water spots would be my best guess. Try Photoflo. I also hold one end of the strip of negatives and shake as much surface moisture as I can.

Are you getting the same spots on every frame?
 
Neither water spots nor drying stains.

Those are the infamous "white spots" of the ACROS and Neopan (the ACROS is way more concerned) due to some incompatibility between those films and some classic powder developers (D76, Xtol).

Those films must be developed with some liquid modern developers (Fuji Superprodol or T-Max Dev). Or in Rodinal (for the ACROS).

The reason for these "white spots" to appear is not known but they do show up, sure ! Especially on ACROS.
 
It's hard to tell what I'm seeing here. Is it a small cropped area? Anyway to show the while frame?

There's no need to use fresh fixer every time.

No need to store XTOL in the fridge - as long as you use it up in 90-160 days and store it in a reasonably cool place.

My guess is these are water marks.

I use Edwals's LFN - just a single drop - in 300-500ml of distilled water for final rinse. I rarely have water marks.

Now - this could also be dust - if you're hanging negs in the shower, inevitably the frames closest to the shower floor will get some dust - unless your room is really clean.

If you provide more context, I might be able to help.
 
notraces said:
It's hard to tell what I'm seeing here. Is it a small cropped area ?
Click to expand...
Of course it is, no need to ask - look at the grain size.

I have experienced the "ACROS white spots" like crazy myself on some ACROS rolls (properly) developed in D76 1+1.

I then managed to get rid of the problem by using D76 1+3 and pre-washing the film (which is theorically totally useless).

Then the problem occured again so I stopped using ACROS.

Google will bring some old photo forums threads to you if you type "acros white spots".
 
Back from holiday now - will try my exposed ACROS films in DDX. Let you know the outcome.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
Those are nothing - these are white spots!

I recently started processing some TMAX (in TMAX developer) after a 20 year hiatus, formerly I worked in commercial labs, and never had issue with spots like I seem to now. One factor is certainly that scanners, especially when unable to do infrared cleaning with bw films, show every dust speck - but there must be something more.

I am beginning to suspect that my idea to do a final rinse in water from my charcoal filtered tap may be the culprit - I need to test, but think it may be leaving particulate in the water. I use photflo and dry them in a dust-free area - I would expect a speck here or there - but these ar like snow - and they are dried on the emulsion. They will likely respond to a re-wash - need to test that filter idea and used some distilled water rinse aid.

spotscrop.jpg
 
cmc850 said:
Those are nothing - these are white spots!

I recently started processing some TMAX (in TMAX developer) after a 20 year hiatus, formerly I worked in commercial labs, and never had issue with spots like I seem to now. One factor is certainly that scanners, especially when unable to do infrared cleaning with bw films, show every dust speck - but there must be something more.

I am beginning to suspect that my idea to do a final rinse in water from my charcoal filtered tap may be the culprit - I need to test, but think it may be leaving particulate in the water. I use photflo and dry them in a dust-free area - I would expect a speck here or there - but these ar like snow - and they are dried on the emulsion. They will likely respond to a re-wash - need to test that filter idea and used some distilled water rinse aid.

spotscrop.jpg
Click to expand...

I see much of these spots also. I recently read that it may be silver deposit from the fixer bottle; mine was in fact old and I will get rid of that one.
The other thing is I will start using destilled water for the last washing. I hope that will help. To get rid of this after scanning in photoshop is awful.
 
I recently scanned a neg that printed 20 years ago that required no spotting at 11x.

It took 45 min to clean up the spots and it was just a Epson 4780.

I have since learned the dark grey particles on the bottom of the fixer bottle are precipitated silver and it sticks to the next film. All that went away when I went to fresh fix every time. It will not wash off film. I can not find a way to filter it.
If you use a glass bottle you will see it.


Air dust is like hairs or small round dots. Silver is random shape with magnification.

I leave it to you how to solve it.
 
Scanners definitely make it tough - the dirt seen on my post is very difficult to see with a loupe with the negs on a diffuse-glass light box.

Not sure the fix issue is my issue - I had the spots with fresh fix as well as once used. Will report back when/if solved.
 
You might want to try filtering each chemical before each use using cofffee filters. I store my chemicals is clear plastic PET bottles and if I hold them up to the light and shake them I see very small amounts of debris, even with chemicals that haven't been used yet. This is especially applicable to reused chemicals as silver is removed by the developer and fixer.

Also, try air drying your tanks and reels after use. Drying them with a towel or cloth could leave a very small amount of lint on them which could get on the film next time. Store them so dust can't get in them. Use a rocket-air blower before use to remove any dust which may have gotten on the air-dried reels and tanks.

Another good practice is not to use chemicals made up from powders for at least 24 hours as all solids may not be dissolved.
 
I'm using fresh chemicals every time and still seeing these spots from time to time. My next roll with same parameters came out fine. One thing I never really validated is the temperature of the fixer bath. As I usually develop at 24C, I never checked the temperature of the fixer. There could be theoretically a temp difference of 5 deg C or even slightly more. May that be a reason?
 
Photon42 said:
I'm using fresh chemicals every time and still seeing these spots from time to time. My next roll with same parameters came out fine. One thing I never really validated is the temperature of the fixer bath. As I usually develop at 24C, I never checked the temperature of the fixer. There could be theoretically a temp difference of 5 deg C or even slightly more. May that be a reason?
Click to expand...

I don't think that this can be the problem. Temperature differences produce a very specific grain.

"most people find a hair in every soup because they shake their heads over it until one falls in".

This is probably the problem ;)
 
Do you reuse your fixer? I do. I found I was getting white spots deposited on my film and couldn't figure it out. I finally tried filtering my fixer after usage through a funnel with a coffee filter in it back into its bottle. You will be amazed at what shows up at the bottom of the filter. Now, no more white spots.
 
kbg32 said:
Do you reuse your fixer? I do. I found I was getting white spots depsoited on my film and couldn't figure it out. I finally tried filtering my fixer after usage through a funnel with a coffee filter in it back into its bottle. You will be amazed at what shows up at the bottom of the filter. Now, no more white spots.
Click to expand...

I have 4 films here waiting for the test; I hope You are right.

In another thread here, someone said that filtering does not help and he uses fresh fixer only, but I would be happy to avoid that. If filtering helps, that will be great.

Thanks for the suggestions...........
 
I have tried every filter you can think of and coffee is the worst. We are looking at super fine stuff.

The best I have found is a coffee filter with a square of first aid roll cotton and a second filter on top. It is still not 100%. Use one time only.

I wash out my glass bottles and have water and air filters. 3 micron and HEPA.

I have concluded some of it is emulsion defects that do not show on optical prints, Leica enlargers and lenses, but scanner finds.
 
kbg32 said:
Do you reuse your fixer? I do. I found I was getting white spots depsoited on my film and couldn't figure it out. I finally tried filtering my fixer after usage through a funnel with a coffee filter in it back into its bottle. You will be amazed at what shows up at the bottom of the filter. Now, no more white spots.
Click to expand...

No, I do not reuse the fixer anymore
 
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