Macpod
Established
Seems like a lot of people are saying EVF is the death of SLRs. So who will make a full frame or large sensor EVF camera or EVIL(electronic viewfinder interchangeable lense camera) and in what mount?
canon, sony and nikon are heavily invested in SLR technology and already have full frame bodies out. that leaves pentax, panasonic, samsung and olympus.
Pentax, if they decide to go this route will be at an advantage given that they already have small camera bodies and a line of full frame autofocus lenses. It would also differentiate them from canon nikon and sony. it would be pointless to compete with those guys on their turf.
Panasonic could be the real surprise here, since they dont have legacy lenses and mounts to worry about. they could come out with a completely different mount or choose to adopt the leica M mount if they want to. this would be a dream for most of us here. kind of a digital contax G2 of sorts.
samsung will be similar to pentax.
Olympus could have a line of full frame EVILs but given their budget and size it would make more sense for them to just make better 4/3 m4/3 lenses and really push that system.
EDIT: or the first to make non M4/3 EVIL, APS size sensor included. I would really love to see how small manufacturers can make an EVIL type of cameras while using legacy mounts like M and K mounts.
canon, sony and nikon are heavily invested in SLR technology and already have full frame bodies out. that leaves pentax, panasonic, samsung and olympus.
Pentax, if they decide to go this route will be at an advantage given that they already have small camera bodies and a line of full frame autofocus lenses. It would also differentiate them from canon nikon and sony. it would be pointless to compete with those guys on their turf.
Panasonic could be the real surprise here, since they dont have legacy lenses and mounts to worry about. they could come out with a completely different mount or choose to adopt the leica M mount if they want to. this would be a dream for most of us here. kind of a digital contax G2 of sorts.
samsung will be similar to pentax.
Olympus could have a line of full frame EVILs but given their budget and size it would make more sense for them to just make better 4/3 m4/3 lenses and really push that system.
EDIT: or the first to make non M4/3 EVIL, APS size sensor included. I would really love to see how small manufacturers can make an EVIL type of cameras while using legacy mounts like M and K mounts.
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ruby.monkey
Veteran
Why would the others bother? It's not like they're being forced to increase sensor size above APS for consumer-grade cameras.
Macpod
Established
hmm, true. I should perhaps change that to larger than M4/3
gavinlg
Veteran
Full frame EVF compacts won't be out for a long long time. I'd bet money on that.
As far as EVF slrs of any size, I think either canon or olympus will be the first. I think it'll be trialled in consumer models and then upped into pro cameras at some point where the evf has advantages over an ovf.
As far as EVF slrs of any size, I think either canon or olympus will be the first. I think it'll be trialled in consumer models and then upped into pro cameras at some point where the evf has advantages over an ovf.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
That would probably be Samsung, then, with the NX series.
Frankie
Speaking Frankly
The one who has sensor technology, but no camera of note, no known name mount, no legacy lens worth talking about...a clean file, and nothing to loose......
Kodak.
There are no mount limitations...other would make adapters...so long as the flange-to-image distance is adequate. M4/3 uses 20mm, Leica-M is 28mm, 4/3 is 40mm, SLR even longer.
Kodak owns Chinon of Japan. No need to negotiate with third-party.
Kodak had used Schneider optics in its past...ancient past.
Kodak is fighting for its survival...a compelling reason to innovate.
The EVF comes down to the tiny LCD chip. Epson offers a 800 x 600 x RGB. The EP-2 uses it. The whole optical unit is ~1 cubic inch...fly-by-wire and fit anywhere.
Kodak.
There are no mount limitations...other would make adapters...so long as the flange-to-image distance is adequate. M4/3 uses 20mm, Leica-M is 28mm, 4/3 is 40mm, SLR even longer.
Kodak owns Chinon of Japan. No need to negotiate with third-party.
Kodak had used Schneider optics in its past...ancient past.
Kodak is fighting for its survival...a compelling reason to innovate.
The EVF comes down to the tiny LCD chip. Epson offers a 800 x 600 x RGB. The EP-2 uses it. The whole optical unit is ~1 cubic inch...fly-by-wire and fit anywhere.
Attachments
kuzano
Veteran
Kodak has been using Schneider optics in P&S digitals for a few years recently.
The Kodak P&S cameras are understated and undervalued, but very good camera's in their own right.
Kodak has had some very impressive alliances with other manufacturers in the recent past... including Kodak and Olympus on sensor technology.
It's very likely that diverting R&D into a camera body would diminish Kodaks current success behind the scenes of Digital photography.
jarski
Veteran
I don't think Canon and Nikon have afford the risk of not being into this market.
yes they dominate the SLR's, but thats not an excuse not to take advantage of new technologies. quite opposite.
yes they dominate the SLR's, but thats not an excuse not to take advantage of new technologies. quite opposite.
bmattock
Veteran
I can think of no reason any manufacturer would want to produce an EVF full-frame camera. Full-frame relates only to traditional film SLR cameras. EVF inherently does away with the prism and thus the need for the size and flange-to-film (sensor) distance required of film SLR lenses.
The only thing a large sensor gives any camera is less noise and more DoF tricks. The first is being achieved now with larger-than-point-n-shoot sensors, and the latter is only necessary for those few (pros and advanced amateurs) who wish that level of control. And even some of them ***-*** the idea of selective focusing as an 'amateur trick' (see other thread). So I see very little demand for full-frame cameras which are NOT also using traditional 35mm film lenses on them (and little enough demand for that).
So, no. Don't see it happening. However, that's just an opinion.
The only thing a large sensor gives any camera is less noise and more DoF tricks. The first is being achieved now with larger-than-point-n-shoot sensors, and the latter is only necessary for those few (pros and advanced amateurs) who wish that level of control. And even some of them ***-*** the idea of selective focusing as an 'amateur trick' (see other thread). So I see very little demand for full-frame cameras which are NOT also using traditional 35mm film lenses on them (and little enough demand for that).
So, no. Don't see it happening. However, that's just an opinion.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Not yet.
The EVF technology is not good enough to be used professionally when a missed opportunity means you don't get to pay rent/mortgage.
The EVF technology is not good enough to be used professionally when a missed opportunity means you don't get to pay rent/mortgage.
Macpod
Established
Frankie: didnt think of that one, might well be..
Matt: the 35mm format is a legacy of film, but so is APS a legacy of APS film. Surely there is more to it then that though. All that lens technology, form factor, the DOF etc of the film legacy has value. To be honest i dont think the M4/3 lenses are that much smaller than 35mmSLR, just look at pentax limited lenses. So if there needs to be a new standard, the 35mm still has something going for it.
the way i see it, the rangefinder mount will allow for lenses approacing the size of M4/3 lenses while giving a different sensor choice to the mass market. and as the price of CCD/CMOS fall, the reasons for not using full frame will deminish.
So in summary:
M4/3 for users that want small tele lenses and zoom and rangefinder style mount full frames for users wanting to use wides and fast primes. Just two standards, canon and nikon can kiss their SLR standards goodbye
Matt: the 35mm format is a legacy of film, but so is APS a legacy of APS film. Surely there is more to it then that though. All that lens technology, form factor, the DOF etc of the film legacy has value. To be honest i dont think the M4/3 lenses are that much smaller than 35mmSLR, just look at pentax limited lenses. So if there needs to be a new standard, the 35mm still has something going for it.
the way i see it, the rangefinder mount will allow for lenses approacing the size of M4/3 lenses while giving a different sensor choice to the mass market. and as the price of CCD/CMOS fall, the reasons for not using full frame will deminish.
So in summary:
M4/3 for users that want small tele lenses and zoom and rangefinder style mount full frames for users wanting to use wides and fast primes. Just two standards, canon and nikon can kiss their SLR standards goodbye
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smasher
Established
The bigger the sensor, the higher the production cost, for the same reason that large-sized silicon chips are much more expensive than smaller ones: as the size goes up, the yield of good chips to bad ones in a given batch goes down. The more rejects in a given batch, the higher the cost and the lower the profit margin. So a full-frame camera of any form factor--SLR, EVF, EVIL, or RF--will have a much higher manufacturing cost than one using a smaller sensor.
Any company bringing a full-frame camera to market will have to either price it at a point where they can recoup their high manufacturing costs, pass the costs to another supplier, or come up with a cheaper (i.e., higher yield) production method. That, or assume that any FF camera is a loss leader to be made up for with other products (lenses, consumer cameras, etc.).
I'd love to see a FF camera priced at and aimed toward a "prosumer" market. I'd particularly love to see one that can use legacy MF prime lenses. But it won't happen unless and until somebody figures out how to produce full-frame sensors at an acceptable cost.
So I'd love to see, say, Pentax come up with a FF body that can use its K-mount lenses. But they probably can't afford to market something like that, especially considering that the wide availability of SMC Pentax lenses would cut deeply into their own profit margins.
Sony has come close. Sony is also a huge, very diversified electronics manufacturer that can eat the cost of developing and manufacturing a FF chip.
I don't know what kind of deal Kodak has with Leica. But I'm sure Kodak would love to supply its chip to additional camera manufacturers. It would make far more sense for Kodak to act as a supplier, and let somebody else assume the risk of designing and marketing a FF camera.
But either yields are either very low for Kodak's sensor, or they have some kind of exclusive deal with Leica. At any rate, the volume must be low if the only product being marketed is a $7000 M9.
IMO the big barrier for a FF EVF/EVIL isn't design or optics engineering. The big barrier is developing and manufacturing a FF sensor at a price point that allows it to be incorporated into a sub-$1000 (or even a sub-$1500) body.
Any company bringing a full-frame camera to market will have to either price it at a point where they can recoup their high manufacturing costs, pass the costs to another supplier, or come up with a cheaper (i.e., higher yield) production method. That, or assume that any FF camera is a loss leader to be made up for with other products (lenses, consumer cameras, etc.).
I'd love to see a FF camera priced at and aimed toward a "prosumer" market. I'd particularly love to see one that can use legacy MF prime lenses. But it won't happen unless and until somebody figures out how to produce full-frame sensors at an acceptable cost.
So I'd love to see, say, Pentax come up with a FF body that can use its K-mount lenses. But they probably can't afford to market something like that, especially considering that the wide availability of SMC Pentax lenses would cut deeply into their own profit margins.
Sony has come close. Sony is also a huge, very diversified electronics manufacturer that can eat the cost of developing and manufacturing a FF chip.
I don't know what kind of deal Kodak has with Leica. But I'm sure Kodak would love to supply its chip to additional camera manufacturers. It would make far more sense for Kodak to act as a supplier, and let somebody else assume the risk of designing and marketing a FF camera.
But either yields are either very low for Kodak's sensor, or they have some kind of exclusive deal with Leica. At any rate, the volume must be low if the only product being marketed is a $7000 M9.
IMO the big barrier for a FF EVF/EVIL isn't design or optics engineering. The big barrier is developing and manufacturing a FF sensor at a price point that allows it to be incorporated into a sub-$1000 (or even a sub-$1500) body.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Who?
The first company who sees a profit in it.
Perhaps the absence of such a camera suggests that after proper market research, no-one is interested.
Also, what's the point? What's wrong with APS or 4/3 unless you're using a legacy mount (of which there are ever fewer)?
Finally, most SLR legacy mount lenses are pretty damn' big, which reduces their attractiveness.
Cheers,
R.
The first company who sees a profit in it.
Perhaps the absence of such a camera suggests that after proper market research, no-one is interested.
Also, what's the point? What's wrong with APS or 4/3 unless you're using a legacy mount (of which there are ever fewer)?
Finally, most SLR legacy mount lenses are pretty damn' big, which reduces their attractiveness.
Cheers,
R.
fotobiblios
Established
Samsung and Pentax seem to be going their own ways - as Samsung are about to launch a micro-APS EVF camera, Pentax may go the full-frame route, and there have been rumours to this effect. Note that if it is a micro-full frame you will need adapters for the K- or 42mm- mount (probably manual focus for most lenses), however the reduced sensor-mount distance would allow other adapters (and hopefully be short enough to include LTM/M)
willie_901
Veteran
Please elaborate.
Do you think EVF cameras have an extraordinary failure rate?
Do you think EVFs are technically unreliable (misleading information)?
Do you think only action photographers are professional?
I really don't understand how EVFs will lead to missed opportunities or revenue unless you make your living from action photography.
bmattock
Veteran
No. However, I think they're unreliable in foul weather. My own photographic attempt to record a parade in 20 degree F weather with an EVF camera led to the camera shutting down (with fresh batteries) after about 20 shots or 30 minutes.
No. But I think they do not present detailed enough information.
No. But I think that most professional photographers need faster refresh rates than EVF cameras currently possess.
EVF's are still too slow to refresh. They do not present enough detail. They do not allow for fast and effective manual focus (despite the counter-assertions of a few, I have now tried the latest greatest EVF and no, I cannot effectively focus manually with them).
I believe EVF technology will eventually supplant optical reflex systems. But not yet. They're just not advanced enough at the moment. Faster, more detail, and the ability to 'really' focus manually or they're of no particular use to me - and I'm not a pro.
aizan
Veteran
leica, as the rumored solution for the r system.
Dwig
Well-known
For the foreseeable future (read: 2010) they only players likely to venture into the new EVIL world are those that are suffering and/or near death in the DSLR market. Panasonic and Olympus, who were in stiff competition for last place and so far behind the pack they almost couldn't be seen, made the brilliant leap two years ago. They now have several solid selling models, some outselling all be the top 3-4 models from Canon and Nikon, at least in the home Japanese market. For them it was a no-brainer, drown or get a new boat.
As far as who will be next, that has been answered with near certainty with the Samsung NX. Its only APS-c and thus only a slightly larger format the m4/3.
Those worrying about Kodak and thinking they need a camera in this class don't understand Kodak's position in digital. Almost every single digital camera, including cell phones, puts money in Kodak's pocket with the possible exception of those using the Foveon chip. Large format digital is "owned" by Kodak, their sensors are just about the only ones in that arena.
The first "full frame" EVIL may prove to be either a Cosina Bessa M-mount chassis (to compete with Leicas without the expense of an optical finder) though they may need to partner with someone else like the EPSON R-D1 series.
Another "sleeper" could be Sony. They have great products but poor market position (Pany's 3 m4/3 models combined outsold Sony's top 2 combined almost 2:1 in 2009). In acquiring Minolta they acquired Konica who have an excellent M-mount RF for a few years along with an excellent line of M-mount lenses. A digital revival of the Konica Hexar line, possibly with an EVF instead of the very expensive optical RF system, might be a viable product. By making it an EVIL the money saved on the VF/RF system could be spent on the more expensive FF sensor. It wouldn't be a mass market camera but if it could compete pricewise with the low end FF DSLRs it might be viable. It would need a new mount, ala m4/3, that would support AF and AE along with adapters for M and Alpha mounts.
Given that Canon and Nikon rule the roost in DSLRs, particularily in the massive FF super-pro line, they will probably prove to be followers rather than early leaders in the EVIL arena. They probably won't take a lead until technology gets to the point that an EVF is so good the human eye can't detect any lag or loss of resolution compared to an optical SLR VF with a conventional focusing screen.
As far as who will be next, that has been answered with near certainty with the Samsung NX. Its only APS-c and thus only a slightly larger format the m4/3.
Those worrying about Kodak and thinking they need a camera in this class don't understand Kodak's position in digital. Almost every single digital camera, including cell phones, puts money in Kodak's pocket with the possible exception of those using the Foveon chip. Large format digital is "owned" by Kodak, their sensors are just about the only ones in that arena.
The first "full frame" EVIL may prove to be either a Cosina Bessa M-mount chassis (to compete with Leicas without the expense of an optical finder) though they may need to partner with someone else like the EPSON R-D1 series.
Another "sleeper" could be Sony. They have great products but poor market position (Pany's 3 m4/3 models combined outsold Sony's top 2 combined almost 2:1 in 2009). In acquiring Minolta they acquired Konica who have an excellent M-mount RF for a few years along with an excellent line of M-mount lenses. A digital revival of the Konica Hexar line, possibly with an EVF instead of the very expensive optical RF system, might be a viable product. By making it an EVIL the money saved on the VF/RF system could be spent on the more expensive FF sensor. It wouldn't be a mass market camera but if it could compete pricewise with the low end FF DSLRs it might be viable. It would need a new mount, ala m4/3, that would support AF and AE along with adapters for M and Alpha mounts.
Given that Canon and Nikon rule the roost in DSLRs, particularily in the massive FF super-pro line, they will probably prove to be followers rather than early leaders in the EVIL arena. They probably won't take a lead until technology gets to the point that an EVF is so good the human eye can't detect any lag or loss of resolution compared to an optical SLR VF with a conventional focusing screen.
jarski
Veteran
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Read Bill's explanation above for the technical reason of my statement.
I have been using E-P2 which has arguably one of the best EVF out there in the current crop of cameras. While it's perfectly sufficient for snapshots and arranged shots, I miss facial expressions (especially kids) because it appeared only some milliseconds later on the EVF.
At first I thought it was shutter lag, but then I realized that it's the EVF lagging.
My wife take family portraits and such, so she work a lot with kids. A missed expression could mean a lot of work to get that back or sometimes the photo shoot end up being a bust. And she's just doing this part time.
I can imagine for other professional full-time photographers (wedding, etc.) it would be worse.