Who's going to buy the new M9M?

urban_alchemist said:
Pleasure. I really don't understand the ire aimed at this camera and its owners.

The Hermes, fine. I get it. It's an M9 with a fancy suit. It does nothing unique, yet adds a bucket-load to the price.

The Summicron APO, I kinda get the hating there too (though I don't necessarily agree). It's hideously expensive and is 'just' another f2.0 lense. Heck, there's another Summicron for far less (which I own, and love). *sigh*

But the MM... hell, everyone on this forum should be cheering Leica for creating it. We all shoot B+W, and here is a camera that truly does something unique that completely fits into our ethos as a group.

Yes, it's expensive and I'm very lucky that I can afford it, but all the haters here should realise that if it is a success, the idea and/or the tech will trickle down to other manufacturers who can create similar b+w-only cameras in much higher volumes at much lower prices.

Why the hell would anyone give a company crap for creating something which so many of us want, just because (as is expected for a niche player with low sales) it is more expensive than we - yes, even me - would like?!?!
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Ya know, July isn't that far off...really.

In regard to why the angst, there are a lot of issues there. As far as the M-M taking over where film is so good (black and white images), I don't worry about it because using film is such a difference in two respects:

1. Process for sure and a lot of us are along for the ride, not the destination;
and,:cool:
2. Fondling digital cameras with the cold, flat, lifeless LCD is just not the same as with a film M where leather, heavy metal and soul is embodied in an inanimate object. My M3 rewards me with a "kiss" with every shutter release and does not protest the infatuation that has grown out of our bonding.:p

So, I say, bring it on! Digital and film CAN co-exist!
 
dave lackey said:
Ya know, July isn't that far off...really.

In regard to why the angst, there are a lot of issues there. As far as the M-M taking over where film is so good (black and white images), I don't worry about it because using film is such a difference in two respects:

1. Process for sure and a lot of us are along for the ride, not the destination;
and,:cool:
2. Fondling digital cameras with the cold, flat, lifeless LCD is just not the same as with a film M where leather, heavy metal and soul is embodied in an inanimate object. My M3 rewards me with a "kiss" with every shutter release and does not protest the infatuation that has grown out of our bonding.:p

So, I say, bring it on! Digital and film CAN co-exist!
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Absolutely! Couldn't agree more!

For sensuality, nothing beats my MP with a roll of SLOOOOOOOOOW film (ISO 25/50 preferred). But come on, somebody's got to be excited about 10,000 ISO! That's nearly three stops more than my favourite (and sadly discontinued) fast film - Neopan 1600.

I still develop and print my own film. That won't change. Just as my M9 hasn't stopped me shooting Portra 160, the MM won't stop me shooting Pan F or Adox CHS 25...
 
GeorgeH said:
The question, for someone who could afford the Monochrom, is one of value for money. Is this camera worth 7,950.00? What does it offer that, say a Nikon D800E does not? The electronics are generations old, it's reliability is shaky (to say the least), battery life sucks, and there isn't much of a gain to be had, that any of the examples have shown, from removing the color array. So, what is the potential buyer left with? Smaller form factor, lighter weight, smaller lenses, manual focus (a plus in this instance), and a mystique borrowed from the film era. All this versus a higher resolution, sharp, reliable DSLR with great battery life and a usable screen resolution. Albeit, at the penalty of increased size and weight. There's also the plastic feel of the DSLR going against it in this comparison but for a price premium of several thousand dollars, that might not be too important to the consumer.
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OK. Now take the cost out of the equation. Still don't want it?

This camera is going to hurt to buy. But like many of my favourite things (all my Leicas included), the enjoyment of using it will remain long after the pain of the purchase is forgotten.
 
urban_alchemist said:
But the MM... hell, everyone on this forum should be cheering Leica for creating it. We all shoot B+W, and here is a camera that truly does something unique that completely fits into our ethos as a group.
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To a degree I agree. But I doubt that the BW coming out of the M9M is going to better than the 800E, which can also do they same in colour.

Yes the shape of the camera is different, but having a video mode counters that negativity. Not to mention the price...
 
Viktor Sebastian said:
To a degree I agree. But I doubt that the BW coming out of the M9M is going to better than the 800E, which can also do they same in colour.
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I fear you're missing the point. As I see it, the MM is a very specific, ultra-focused, ultra-niche engineering exercise to answer the question: how can we take the best possible b+w digital images?

For luddites like me grown up on film: think of it as a new specific film emulsion with a camera thrown in.

It shouldn't be, and can't be, compared to anything less focused. It exists very much on its own terms.
 
GeorgeH said:
The question, for someone who could afford the Monochrom, is one of value for money. Is this camera worth 7,950.00? What does it offer that, say a Nikon D800E does not? The electronics are generations old, it's reliability is shaky (to say the least), battery life sucks, and there isn't much of a gain to be had, that any of the examples have shown, from removing the color array. So, what is the potential buyer left with? Smaller form factor, lighter weight, smaller lenses, manual focus (a plus in this instance), and a mystique borrowed from the film era. All this versus a higher resolution, sharp, reliable DSLR with great battery life and a usable screen resolution. Albeit, at the penalty of increased size and weight. There's also the plastic feel of the DSLR going against it in this comparison but for a price premium of several thousand dollars, that might not be too important to the consumer.
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So, George, respectfully, I should not drive a Mercedes Benz E350 because a Toyota Camry for half the price is all you stated above.

That is YOUR idea of value, desire, passion, and what YOU want to spend YOUR money on. Don't try to pass your own values and consumer patterns on to someone else under some moralistic umbrella.

It will not work anyway if you try. We all have to be our own persons.:angel:

Edit: I don't own a car at all, so take this as a metaphor for discussion. LOL.
 
Just one last thing before I go to bed, to try and further explain why I am more exicted about this camera than almost any I care to remember:

For the first time in the world of digital the image is inherent to the medium just as it was when the emulsion you chose dictated how the next 36 images would look.

I'll probably buy an M10 too, and I'll carry both bodies when I go away (film tends to be a home-town, no luggage allowance indulgence). No matter how good the M10 conversion to B+W will be, I'll always shoot the MM when I want to shoot monochrome. In all the years I've had an M9, I've never converted a shot to B+W. It has a colour sensor, so I shoot it in colour. Conversion just feels like cheating.

But hey, that's just me. I love that this camera exists, and that's why I've ordered one.
 
urban_alchemist said:
Just one last thing before I go to bed, to try and further explain why I am more exicted about this camera than almost any I care to remember:

For the first time in the world of digital the image is inherent to the medium just as it was when the emulsion you chose dictated how the next 36 images would look.

I'll probably buy an M10 too, and I'll carry both bodies when I go away (film tends to be a home-town, no luggage allowance indulgence). No matter how good the M10 conversion to B+W will be, I'll always shoot the MM when I want to shoot monochrome. In all the years I've had an M9, I've never converted a shot to B+W. It has a colour sensor, so I shoot it in colour. Conversion just feels like cheating.

But hey, that's just me. I love that this camera exists, and that's why I've ordered one.
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Love it! Sounds like a great plan to me.;)
 
urban_alchemist said:
For the first time in the world of digital the image is inherent to the medium just as it was when the emulsion you chose dictated how the next 36 images would look.
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Just shoot jpeg only B&W. Its an option in the menu in both the M9 & M8 and maybe even in the M9H and M9T but i have never seen those.

And if the thought freaks you out, then perhaps the M9M is not for you because the only differences will be in sharpness and ISO performance. In a way you could think of it as the ultimate/glorified jpeg camera.
 
urban_alchemist said:
For the first time in the world of digital the image is inherent to the medium just as it was when the emulsion you chose dictated how the next 36 images would look.
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You make a great point. This is one of the strong points of film to me: you dedicate yourself, for at least 36 frames, shooting to a look. My hope is that further diversification of sensors is part of the future of digital photography. Might even open up a path for Leica to offer a product at a lower price level without eating into the top level.
 
Viktor Sebastian said:
Just shoot jpeg only B&W. Its an option in the menu in both the M9 & M8 and maybe even in the M9H and M9T but i have never seen those.
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Viktor, I respectfully suggest we agree to disagree. I believe you and I will never see this issue through the same eyes.

Nothing wrong with that but it may save us some time :)
 
GeorgeH said:
There is no way for me to take cost out of the equation. If you're asking which I'd choose if someone were to offer me either camera as a gift then, I would still wait until more reviews and comparisons were published in order to make an informed decision. Ideally, I'd wait for one or two iterations of firmware updates as well.
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"The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." - O. Wilde
 
GeorgeH said:
Dave, nowhere in my post did I dictate, suggest, or otherwise insinuate what you should do with your money. My post wasn't about you, my man. With an equal measure of respect, kindly get over yourself.
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George, again respectfully, I don't have to "get over myself" because I am nothing. I was merely discussing how no one should have to apologize for anything they do with their own money and I disagree that people should be so quick to judge someone for what they do with their own money.:angel:

Discussions are not personally oriented all the time. A metaphor is just that. I own nothing but two bags of cameras and the clothes on my back. I am a full-time caregiver for my disabled wife and I haven't had a job since 2008. I am sitting here with an abcessed tooth and no way to pay for it getting fixed any time soon. Get over myself?

Think I feel superior? There is no way I can purchase a new anything but I do not feel "superior" for being broke. But I am my own person and everyone should be. IMO, YMMV, everyone should feel good about themselves as I am sure you do.

So, if you think I am on a high horse, nothing could be farther from the truth. I am nothing. I own nothing to speak of. I have no hope for much in the future at all...But I have my own principles and my own joy of life which is personal to me.
Get over myself? That was done a very long time ago...:angel:
 
braver said:
You make a great point. This is one of the strong points of film to me: you dedicate yourself, for at least 36 frames, shooting to a look. My hope is that further diversification of sensors is part of the future of digital photography. Might even open up a path for Leica to offer a product at a lower price level without eating into the top level.
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Or, if the camera is a success, for Fuji to create a similar monochrome-sensored X-Pro. Who wouldn't like to see that?

Even minor success breeds imitation, and competition is always welcome. I remember this forum when there were two choices in the world of large sensor photography: the Leica M8/Rd1 or a big, heavy SLR. In barely two years, we have a whole new segment with, some would argue, the best of both worlds.

And I'm pretty sure the die-hard rangefinder lot had something to do with its existence.
 
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