cz23
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Completely disagree. Everyone already IS creative, but some have deeper access to that part of themselves than others do. It's belief systems like the OP's that stifle that dimension of ourselves as we grow.
This either/or perspective is actually a lousy way to frame a discussion, because the fact is that everyone can learn to be more creative than they now are. That's what really matters.
Look at your own creative life. Sometimes you have dry periods and sometimes you have incredibly fertile periods. It's not that you suddenly become more innately creative. It's far more likely that your circumstances have allowed you to once again tap into that dormant dimension of yourself. We all have that sacred, creative space within; artists are just better able to access it. Gaining greater access is something anyone can learn.
John
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
It seems to me, short of your being from another species, all judgement must have huge doses of humanity included.
What I'm trying to get at is: how do we agree what "good at photography", as in the thread title, means? I'm really interested to see if someone can come up with a definition that differs from "this is what I like or have been taught I should like".
My current position is that the question should read "Why do some people produce pictures that are liked by lots of people in [select your audience here] and others don't?"
I'd really like to see if anyone can come up with an argument that will convince me otherwise.
FrankS
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Love Film
I don't believe you can learn to be creative. You can plod along and learn to ape real creativity, and you can learn to be technically better, but you can't learn to be an "artist".
Quote:
"Completely disagree. Everyone already IS creative, but some have deeper access to that part of themselves than others do. It's belief systems like the OP's that stifle that dimension of ourselves as we grow.
This either/or perspective is actually a lousy way to frame a discussion, because the fact is that everyone can learn to be more creative than they now are. That's what really matters.
Look at your own creative life. Sometimes you have dry periods and sometimes you have incredibly fertile periods. It's not that you suddenly become more innately creative. It's far more likely that your circumstances have allowed you to once again tap into that dormant dimension of yourself. We all have that sacred, creative space within; artists are just better able to access it. Gaining greater access is something anyone can learn.
John"
Great response John.
Also, I don't buy the gear head or artist dichotomy.
Originally Posted by I Love Film
I don't believe you can learn to be creative. You can plod along and learn to ape real creativity, and you can learn to be technically better, but you can't learn to be an "artist".
Quote:
"Completely disagree. Everyone already IS creative, but some have deeper access to that part of themselves than others do. It's belief systems like the OP's that stifle that dimension of ourselves as we grow.
This either/or perspective is actually a lousy way to frame a discussion, because the fact is that everyone can learn to be more creative than they now are. That's what really matters.
Look at your own creative life. Sometimes you have dry periods and sometimes you have incredibly fertile periods. It's not that you suddenly become more innately creative. It's far more likely that your circumstances have allowed you to once again tap into that dormant dimension of yourself. We all have that sacred, creative space within; artists are just better able to access it. Gaining greater access is something anyone can learn.
John"
Great response John.
Also, I don't buy the gear head or artist dichotomy.
fstops
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A good photographer is someone who knows if his good or no good; therefore, he does not go on living the frustrating life of a hack.
Its very comforting to know and admit one's limitations.
Its very comforting to know and admit one's limitations.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
From what I understand of the French art establishment at the time, they did!
So then, I think, the question becomes: what is the pressure behind those who feel the need to impose "dogmatism, boredom, and false prophets."?
I sometimes think that, if we could only pinpoint this need for absolutism and treat it, we'd have far more fun and far less mayhem. Then again, perhaps the absolutism is a big part of the fun, for those who wish to impose it.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
Darn them contrary folks!
awaw
Member
It´s all in the equipment
It´s all in the equipment
Buy expensive equipment and you are a good photographer!
It´s all in the equipment
Buy expensive equipment and you are a good photographer!
j j
Well-known
One problem with this idea is that the number of photographers who know they are good and the number of good photographers does not necessarily equate.
hteasley
Pupil
I have a different but important version of that: I think people are born with preferences that draw them to being fulfilled by doing different things. I don't really believe in born potential. My daughter is a good artist, and she will think in the future that she was born that way, but I know that before she was two, she had filled crates and crates of drawings and scribbles. By five she had filled more sketchbooks than I ever will (and I'm an Art Director). Her skill came through experience, but much of it is experience she'll never remember. She just loves to draw, and does it a LOT.
A drawing professor in college started a semester off by saying to the class, "You have 100,000 bad drawings in you. It's my job to get them out as fast as possible." I've always thought that was about right. Do anything 100,000 times (and in such a way that you're really engaged with doing it), and you'll get good at it.
Teuthida
Well-known
I don't believe in "an eye." I believe in good editing skills.
I Love Film
Well-known
There are gifted, insightful, precise and natural genius neurosurgeons.
There are hacks, who laboriously learned surgery through rigid, repetitive practice, and cannot improvise when faced with a unexpected complication.
Who do you want to remove your brain tumor?
There are hacks, who laboriously learned surgery through rigid, repetitive practice, and cannot improvise when faced with a unexpected complication.
Who do you want to remove your brain tumor?
I Love Film
Well-known
Is an idiot-savant who can perfectly replay a complicated piano piece that he has only heard once creative? Or is he a mechanical music box?
chrisso
Established
I agree, and this is my current theory or philosophy.
A lot of leading musicians started very young (3, 4 years old), had an enthusiastic parent nurturing them, or influencing their musical taste, and many spent hours playing or practising instead of kicking a ball in the park like other young kids.
There is too much talk of innate talent, and this easily becomes an excuse for failure - "I just wasn't talented". Instead of "I just wasn't prepared to make the sacrifice"
chrisso
Established
I had a recent (and minor) brush with this decision. And the leading guy in my country is the one who has performs such complicated and delicate surgery hundreds of times each year. Recent research actually backs this. Post cancer life expectancy is impacted negatively if you undergo surgery with a less experienced surgeon. Current advice is to shop around and go with the surgeon with the most experience in the operation you need.
It's likely that the more experienced you are, the more you are prepared for unexpected complications.
Nothing was mentioned about talent, or any aspect of hereditary skill.
kennylovrin
Well-known
I think Sejanus.Aelianus have written a lot of good points that I fully agree with, and I find it refreshing to read.
What I also think is that being good at something in many cases actually means "being good at knowing what will please others". And there are many factors that affects what pleasing other means - who they are, where the world is at, what has been accepted long ago as right or wrong etc. Also who you are, if you are known since before, what you did to get your result etc.
I think some of my own photos are crap, some are good and a few are great. But looking at the overall response I get on them I know that most people place them in the "bad" category. Does it mean I'm wrong? No, it just means that I either suck at seeing what other people considers to be good, or I chose to ignore it.
Then of course there are things that almost everyone agrees is bad, or everyone agrees is good etc. But those are often the extremes. In between, in the lovely gray area, it's a lot harder to define good/bad/right/wrong.
Same thing applies to music for example, painting etc. But it does not apply to very concrete things like running a pre-defined distance the fastest, I'd say.
If you want to hit it off professionally, I think "knowing what others will consider good" becomes extremely important. It's nothing strange really, it's what we all do every day more or less in our "normal" day jobs. If you don't care about taking it to that level but instead do it for fun, you can either choose to just do what you do, change what you do, or do what you do and find the people that likes the same thing if you are after praise.
I'm sure a lot of people doesn't agree with me, but this aspect of good/bad has always bugged me to an extent where I sometimes completely lose my temper just thinking about it. I find it so extremely annoying that sometimes awful products (be it art or whatever) gets praise and I just don't see how it can even be considered remotely interesting. But then again that is just my opinion on that specific piece. I think it is important to remember than when someone says what you do isn't good enough. It's just their opinion. Then after that you have to think about what you are after with what you're doing.
What I also think is that being good at something in many cases actually means "being good at knowing what will please others". And there are many factors that affects what pleasing other means - who they are, where the world is at, what has been accepted long ago as right or wrong etc. Also who you are, if you are known since before, what you did to get your result etc.
I think some of my own photos are crap, some are good and a few are great. But looking at the overall response I get on them I know that most people place them in the "bad" category. Does it mean I'm wrong? No, it just means that I either suck at seeing what other people considers to be good, or I chose to ignore it.
Then of course there are things that almost everyone agrees is bad, or everyone agrees is good etc. But those are often the extremes. In between, in the lovely gray area, it's a lot harder to define good/bad/right/wrong.
Same thing applies to music for example, painting etc. But it does not apply to very concrete things like running a pre-defined distance the fastest, I'd say.
If you want to hit it off professionally, I think "knowing what others will consider good" becomes extremely important. It's nothing strange really, it's what we all do every day more or less in our "normal" day jobs. If you don't care about taking it to that level but instead do it for fun, you can either choose to just do what you do, change what you do, or do what you do and find the people that likes the same thing if you are after praise.
I'm sure a lot of people doesn't agree with me, but this aspect of good/bad has always bugged me to an extent where I sometimes completely lose my temper just thinking about it. I find it so extremely annoying that sometimes awful products (be it art or whatever) gets praise and I just don't see how it can even be considered remotely interesting. But then again that is just my opinion on that specific piece. I think it is important to remember than when someone says what you do isn't good enough. It's just their opinion. Then after that you have to think about what you are after with what you're doing.
cz23
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More dualistic thinking, I feel. Especially the "purely," with all its nasty overtones. This kind of thinking leads to segregation, exclusivity, and an us/them mentality.
Watch great mechanics work and you'll see that are incredibly creative in executing their tasks. And you don't become a great artist without exceptional mastery of technical skills. No person is purely anything; we're all too rich and complex for that.
I see it as two parallel sliding scales. Everyone has both; we each fall on different places on each scale. Who knows, perhaps we start life with each slider fixed at one spot. But anyone can move both scales more to the right with training and hard work.
John
Jamie123
Veteran
Just saw this quote from an interview with Jim Goldberg:
"Watching students grow is interesting—and them observing my process helps them see that it’s not that mysterious of a thing to do. In order to figure this artmaking stuff out, it’s trial and error and experimentation, and takes some time and hard thinking."
"Watching students grow is interesting—and them observing my process helps them see that it’s not that mysterious of a thing to do. In order to figure this artmaking stuff out, it’s trial and error and experimentation, and takes some time and hard thinking."
koven
Well-known
Oh man I was afraid to come back in this thread after the lashing I got on the 1st page but great responses guys. It gave me a lot to think about. I made this thread because a couple opportunities came up for me to take my photography to the next level but I'm really not sure if If I'm good enough or what separates me from the rest. At the same time there are people younger then me who haven't been taking pictures as long doing shows. I just need to stop thinking so much and go for it.
You can't worry about who is better than you... there is always someone better than you at whatever you're into. Also, age / time has nothing to do with it... check this out for encouragement:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/genius.html
As for seperating yourself from others, you just have to keep chugging along because you love it (or its your job) and realize it may never happen (and be ok with that).
mwoenv
Well-known
Because what images you decide to capture and how you capture them come from inside you - your perspectives, emotions, mind, and eye working together to create the resultant image, and everyone is different. That's why it is art.
Sure, there are also purely technical skills involved in photography, e.g., in processing, and you have to use your gear competently. But it's mostly you that makes the difference. I think the great emphasis on gear can be misplaced.
Sure, there are also purely technical skills involved in photography, e.g., in processing, and you have to use your gear competently. But it's mostly you that makes the difference. I think the great emphasis on gear can be misplaced.