Why did you decide NOT to buy a digital Leica M?

[Sonnar Brian]

M4 mode: shutter should open only during the actual exposure. That would save a lot of time.
I find the Latency of the M240 used in Live mode to be much longer than the entry-level Nikon Z5. I cannot use the M240 in Liveview mode at the skating rink and get shots of moving skaters. I have good luck with the Rangefinder on the M240, M9, and M Monochrom. I can with the Z5. If the M11 latency is like the M240 in Liveview mode- it would not be suitable for that environment. SO- Leica defeated the whole purpose of having a rangefinder camera. They need to fix it. Just a matter of writing new firmware. And that is just typing.

 

[Godfrey]

I mean, they can autofocus their own lenses and manually focus every other lens ever made for any legacy system, including all Leica M, M39, and R lenses, with focus assist. There are autofocus adapters for legacy lenses. OEM mirrorless prime lenses these days are among the best 35mm-equivalent lenses ever made by Nikon, Canon, etc.. They can do decent video. They have higher burst modes, higher usable isos (I believe), multiple metering modes, multiple exposure modes, etc etc etc. But, yes, they don't use Leica's 1950s optical rangefinder system, and they often cannot fit in a pocket.

Okay:

- For the Nikon/Sony/Canon/etc: Autofocus with dedicated lenses ... one thing. (All digital Leica M cameras that have Live View can focus every other lens made for any legacy system as well.) Some autofocus adapaters for some legacy lenses isn't much of an advantage beyond the basic inclusion of AF ... never mind whether you do or don't use AF as well. I have four digital cameras which have AF, and only rarely use AF even with them ... mostly when their manual focus capabilities are not up to the task.

I'll stay away from judging the assertion that "OEM mirrorless prime lenses these day amonst the best 35mm-equivalent lenses ever made by..." whomever. It seems to me that there are several camps in this ball game, including a lot of people who find modern design lenses not to their taste and look for old lenses, and companies making essentially replicas of old lenses because people prefer them. Remember that Leica also sells a few modern mirrorless systems and lenses for them, and I'd opine that their lenses remain in the top tier of all lenses ever produced, in general.

- Video .. another thing. Is it a plus? Leica offered video in the M240 and removed it ... It evidently wasn't that popular or highly desired.

- Higher burst modes ... Some do, some don't. Depends on what you find yourself needing and using. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've found burst modes useful in general, although I can think of a couple of scenarios when they are useful. Pretty rare... Remember that Leica also has those other cameras with faster burst modes too.

- I don't know of any camera that does better image quality with ISO 50000 to 100000 than the Leica M10 Monochrom. The M10-R is pretty darn good at ISO 12500 to 16000

- Multiple metering modes ... Okay, if you find you need it, with respect to the Leica M

- Multiple exposure modes ... Okay, with respect to the Leica M

So that's four or five things that some other brand cameras can do better than a Leica M, to some degree and up to a point, and ignoring some of Leica's other camera offerings completely. Certainly not a situation where I'd call those cameras "infinitely more versatile".

G

 

[Godfrey]

Hey Sonnar Brian ... congrats on your upcoming retirement! 😀

I guess that if I can successfully do motorcycle racing photos with a Hasselblad 500CM (yes, I have), I could do them with an M11 as well. I probably wouldn't make 1000 of them in a session, but who can actually utilize 1000 photos out of a single session anyway? 😉

G

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I tried the M240 at the skating rink with/without Liveview. The Liveview has much more latency that the Nikon DF DSLR. Used with the Viewfinder/Rangefinder- much faster. I can shoot with the M9 enough to have to wait for the buffer to flush.

"Retirement"- I want to be like the Old Scientist in the movie "THEM!" with the Giant Ants where they hire his Daughter to keep him on-track.

 

[shawn]

This is pretty critical from my perspective. The S1r doesn't ever feel slow when I'm using manual focus lenses. With af lenses in low light, I notice the time taken for af, even though I'm sure it's faster than me - but I've always focused before I want to release the shutter...

Thanks, Brian and Marty

Yeah, it shoot fast and the shutter has very low latency. Don't know if you tried it but you can set it up for back button focus if you like to pre-focus. Either turn Shutter AF - Off (and use AF On) or switch it to MF mode and then press the AF On button. If you use the MF mode it just does simple center point focusing, in AF with Shutter AF OFF it will do whatever focusing mode you have it set for.

 

[shawn]

I tried the M240 at the skating rink with/without Liveview. The Liveview has much more latency that the Nikon DF DSLR. Used with the Viewfinder/Rangefinder- much faster. I can shoot with the M9 enough to have to wait for the buffer to flush.

"Retirement"- I want to be like the Old Scientist in the movie "THEM!" with the Giant Ants where they hire his Daughter to keep him on-track.

Yes, the M240 in liveview is painfully slow in shutter latency and then in reshoot time If the M11 is comparable it is a massive step backwards and totally unneccessary since plenty of other full frame mirrorless cameras don't have that.

 

[sojournerphoto]

Yes, the M240 in liveview is painfully slow in shutter latency and then in reshoot time If the M11 is comparable it is a massive step backwards and totally unneccessary since plenty of other full frame mirrorless cameras don't have that.

There's quite a lot of commentary across the web on the M11. I get the impression that it's latency is unpredictable. It seems to vary depending on metering... so from quite quick to very slow.

Just because I've been working on some prints tonight and we touched on the S1r, here's a digital picture from my mother in law's 91st last week - S1r with a manually focused Zeiss Milvus ZF 85/1.4 wide open. There's not a lot of dof and it's big an heavy but I do like the way that Zeiss glass renders people. My AF lenses are Sigma contemporary plus the art macro and all seem to ahve a lot of resolution.

(Just edited to add that the colour in this web version looks poor on my AdobeRGB screen, but excellent in Lightroom and print... YMMV)

 

[wlewisiii]

I tried the M240 at the skating rink with/without Liveview. The Liveview has much more latency that the Nikon DF DSLR. Used with the Viewfinder/Rangefinder- much faster. I can shoot with the M9 enough to have to wait for the buffer to flush.

"Retirement"- I want to be like the Old Scientist in the movie "THEM!" with the Giant Ants where they hire his Daughter to keep him on-track.

I use my 240 with the RF and never really notice any issue with latency. If I need to do something liveview, I put a VF2 on it and it doesn't feel as bad (probably is but I can fool myself at least 😉 )

 

[Sonnar Brian]

M240 with the RF: No problem with Latency. M240 with the VF-2, Liveview: Latency. The M11 meter mode is essentially Liveview all the time. If it's like the M240 with the VF-2, "Non-Starter" for me.

first time out with the Z5 - used it with the Canon 50/0.95 and breech-mount adapter, wide-open.


Was impressed by ease-of-focus and low-latency. The M240 with the VF-2 is much slower. With the RF- I can get shots like this:
90mm F1.5 Mitakon, wide-open. I gave up using the VF-2 that day.
M240, focus via RF.

She is going fast, can keep ahead of the Giant Ants.

 

[shawn]

There's quite a lot of commentary across the web on the M11. I get the impression that it's latency is unpredictable. It seems to vary depending on metering... so from quite quick to very slow.

Just because I've been working on some prints tonight and we touched on the S1r, here's a digital picture from my mother in law's 91st last week - S1r with a manually focused Zeiss Milvus ZF 85/1.4 wide open. There's not a lot of dof and it's big an heavy but I do like the way that Zeiss glass renders people. My AF lenses are Sigma contemporary plus the art macro and all seem to ahve a lot of resolution.

(Just edited to add that the colour in this web version looks poor on my AdobeRGB screen, but excellent in Lightroom and print... YMMV)

View attachment 4833446

That does render nicely! The EVF really is great for MF.

 

[wlewisiii]

M240 with the RF: No problem with Latency. M240 with the VF-2, Liveview: Latency. The M11 meter mode is essentially Liveview all the time. If it's like the M240 with the VF-2, "Non-Starter" for me.

first time out with the Z5 - used it with the Canon 50/0.95 and breech-mount adapter, wide-open.
View attachment 4833450View attachment 4833452

Was impressed by ease-of-focus and low-latency. The M240 with the VF-2 is much slower. With the RF- I can get shots like this:
90mm F1.5 Mitakon, wide-open. I gave up using the VF-2 that day.
View attachment 4833456
She is going fast, can keep ahead of the Giant Ants.

The nice thing about being a landscape guy is I don't usually have to worry about rocks and trees moving too fast 😉 Beautiful shots 🙂

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I become part of the Camera's mechanism.



I am the opto-mechanical feedback mechanism.
The Nut that Focuses the Lens...

TTArtisans 50/0.95, wide-open on the original M Monochrom. ISO 10,000. My own DNG Processing, Fortran. The last Leica that I bought new.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The nice thing about being a landscape guy is I don't usually have to worry about rocks and trees moving too fast 😉 Beautiful shots 🙂

If the rocks are moving as fast as my Daughter- RUN! It's an avalanche!
If the Trees are moving- Duck and Cover, TWISTER!

 

[Freakscene]

There's quite a lot of commentary across the web on the M11. I get the impression that it's latency is unpredictable. It seems to vary depending on metering... so from quite quick to very slow.

This is not unique to the M11 series cameras. Shutter lag has been very variable since the 240 series. There are lots of reasons thatpeople liked film Leicas, but the thing that I liked best was that the shutter lag was so short, and the shutter button feeling was so clear and direct that I knew what I got/had photographed. With the digital Ms it is much more uncertain. It makes a big difference. And as I said, if I had anything to do with Leica M engineering and development I would make it my number 1 priority to fix this. Even making it consistent would be better, but consistent and a very short lag would be best. But I’m not involved with Leica except as a user, and, in some ways, it seems Leica sells more cameras the less they are used for the sort of work I do, so I am not sure it is anywhere near a priority for Leica.



For example, I like this, but I thought the boy running from the left would have been inbetween the pillars when the camera fired. The shutter was uncharacteristically fast, and he wasn’t. I’d prefer this photo if he was there. It’s still pretty good, but I’m much more likely to edit it out of a collection where he is rather than if he was between the pillars.

Marty

 

[Godfrey]

I have not noticed so much inconsistency or lag in my digital Ms (M9, M240, M262, M10-M/-R). If the shutter lag you were expecting would have put a running child another third of the way into the frame, well hmmmm ... I've never owned a camera that had that much shutter lag, even my ancient Sony F707 didn't have half that.

(On the photo you presented, well, I think the composition is much stronger as is than it would be if the child was nearer the center of the frame. His presence there balances the heavier weight of the women and baby on the right, and fits perfectly with the offset-from-center of the pillars. Well, that's my opinion...)

I've not done any measurements of shutter lag on these cameras... I think my M4-2 was measured by others as 5-6 milliseconds. (The lag champ that I recall from that test long ago was a Minox 35 ... 1-2 milliseconds.) The M10s don't feel substantively different compared to the M4-2 in lag, although the feel of the camera is quite different (horizontal cloth focal plane shutter vs vertical metal focal plane shutter... inevitably different). That says to me that the shutter lag is well within my expected interval based on my previous film M cameras. I haven't handled/used an M11 yet so maybe it's new technology is very different and generates a much more profound lag. Maybe someday I'll borrow one for a test drive... but I'm pretty happy with the M10-M and M10-R.)

G

(I just pulled out the M4-2 and M10-M, did a manual setting of 1/125 sec, and fired the shutter with each about 10 times. The M4-2 is louder and makes a little more vibration, with a sharper metallic snick than the M10-M's soft "chunk" sound, but honestly I cannot detect much difference in the shutter lag at all. I could do a more precise test but doubt it's worth obsessing about.. 😉 )

 

[Freakscene]

I have not noticed so much inconsistency or lag in my digital Ms (M9, M240, M262, M10-M/-R). If the shutter lag you were expecting would have put a running child another third of the way into the frame, well hmmmm ... I've never owned a camera that had that much shutter lag, even my ancient Sony F707 didn't have half that.

(On the photo you presented, well, I think the composition is much stronger as is than it would be if the child was nearer the center of the frame. His presence there balances the heavier weight of the women and baby on the right, and fits perfectly with the offset-from-center of the pillars. Well, that's my opinion...)

I've not done any measurements of shutter lag on these cameras... I think my M4-2 was measured by others as 5-6 milliseconds. (The lag champ that I recall from that test long ago was a Minox 35 ... 1-2 milliseconds.) The M10s don't feel substantively different compared to the M4-2 in lag, although the feel of the camera is quite different (horizontal cloth focal plane shutter vs vertical metal focal plane shutter... inevitably different). That says to me that the shutter lag is well within my expected interval based on my previous film M cameras. I haven't handled/used an M11 yet so maybe it's new technology is very different and generates a much more profound lag. Maybe someday I'll borrow one for a test drive... but I'm pretty happy with the M10-M and M10-R.)

G

(I just pulled out the M4-2 and M10-M, did a manual setting of 1/125 sec, and fired the shutter with each about 10 times. The M4-2 is louder and makes a little more vibration, with a sharper metallic snick than the M10-M's soft "chunk" sound, but honestly I cannot detect much difference in the shutter lag at all. I could do a more precise test but doubt it's worth obsessing about.. 😉 )

Thanks for your analysis on the photo - I like your compositions a lot, so it is very useful for me. I think I like to place objects in gaps in photos as a sort of photographic version of the ‘loud-quiet-loud’ music aesthetic.

For this photo I was using the viso, so the shutter had to close, the camera re-metered and then took the shot. When it works well it can be really fast, like here, but sometimes when it ‘thinks’ it can take a noticeable period of time. I think I probably need a mirrorless camera, but I don’t want the complexity, weight, or giant lenses to get good optical quality.

I am sure part of the problem is that I use autoexposure and the Viso, but I have measured the shutter lag on the M10 and it is, at best (manual, no attachments, fully charged battery, firmware re-set to factory defaults and tested as running properly), vastly (45-60 ms) slower than the 5-6ms of pre-M7 film Ms. The problem is also ‘feel’. Maybe it’s from years of target and clay pigeon shooting, but I am quite sensitive to it.

 

[shawn]

Thanks for your analysis on the photo - I like your compositions a lot, so it is very useful for me. I think I like to place objects in gaps in photos as a sort of photographic version of the ‘loud-quiet-loud’ music aesthetic.

For this photo I was using the viso, so the shutter had to close, the camera re-metered and then took the shot. When it works well it can be really fast, like here, but sometimes when it ‘thinks’ it can take a noticeable period of time. I think I probably need a mirrorless camera, but I don’t want the complexity, weight, or giant lenses to get good optical quality.

I am sure part of the problem is that I use autoexposure and the Viso, but I have measured the shutter lag on the M10 and it is, at best (manual, no attachments, fully charged battery, firmware re-set to factory defaults and tested as running properly), vastly (45-60 ms) slower than the 5-6ms of pre-M7 film Ms. The problem is also ‘feel’. Maybe it’s from years of target and clay pigeon shooting, but I am quite sensitive to it.

Mirrorless has a huge range of cameras and lenses from small and light to larger and much heavier. Even within a system there are large ranges of camerass and lenses sizes. For example this comparison from Camerasize.com.



Both full frame, with 35mm lenses that could be used on either camera as they are both L mount. The big combo is 4.65 pounds, the little combo is 1.66 pounds. The little one actually has higher resolution.

Pick a system that has the flexibility that you need. Shutter lag varies somewhat depending upon the model so it is good to check that out. Imaging Resource tests for shutter lag but they don't have the M11 tested. Their tests mirror what I have found with some of my own mirrorless cameras. My A7RII was just slow enough to get in the way *sometimes*, the GFX50R was harder to shoot sports (fencing) due to its lag in mechanical shutter and ECFS definitely helped on that one. My S1R is so fast it isn't an issue at all for me shooting fencing.

When I had the M240 I feel like its shutter lag (in traditional metering, no live view) was less than the Sony A7RII but its shot to shot time was much much slower.

 

[Godfrey]

Thanks for your analysis on the photo - I like your compositions a lot, so it is very useful for me. I think I like to place objects in gaps in photos as a sort of photographic version of the ‘loud-quiet-loud’ music aesthetic.

For this photo I was using the viso, so the shutter had to close, the camera re-metered and then took the shot. When it works well it can be really fast, like here, but sometimes when it ‘thinks’ it can take a noticeable period of time. I think I probably need a mirrorless camera, but I don’t want the complexity, weight, or giant lenses to get good optical quality.

I am sure part of the problem is that I use autoexposure and the Viso, but I have measured the shutter lag on the M10 and it is, at best (manual, no attachments, fully charged battery, firmware re-set to factory defaults and tested as running properly), vastly (45-60 ms) slower than the 5-6ms of pre-M7 film Ms. The problem is also ‘feel’. Maybe it’s from years of target and clay pigeon shooting, but I am quite sensitive to it.

You're welcome! 😀

AH, with Live View or EVF fitted ... and autoexposure selected! ... there is quite a bit more shutter lag ... didn't know that's the setup you were using.

You've got me curious. I don't know when I'll have the time to setup the shutter lag measuring stuff, but I will eventually. As I said, in the simplest case (manual exposure, same shutter speed, etc), my M10-M feels to have very little lag, not significantly different from the M4-2. I set them up with a pair of shutter release cables and triggered them simultaneously, with the lens off and watching the shutters: By eye and ear, I could not observe a difference in the opening of the shutters vs when I pressed the release buttons. Saying the M10-M has 10x the lag of the M4-2 in this situation, well, that doesn't meet my observations either in use or in my crude test.

No matter, really. I just use them and they work as I expect. If that is not the same for you, than maybe another camera is preferable. Most SLRs have far more lag than any M, so that's not a viable improvement. Mirrorless ... some are really good, others on the same order as an SLR, and then there's the lens issue. It will take some time in testing to find the right setup that meets what you're looking for.

G

 

[Freakscene]

You're welcome! 😀

AH, with Live View or EVF fitted ... and autoexposure selected! ... there is quite a bit more shutter lag ... didn't know that's the setup you were using.

You've got me curious. I don't know when I'll have the time to setup the shutter lag measuring stuff, but I will eventually. As I said, in the simplest case (manual exposure, same shutter speed, etc), my M10-M feels to have very little lag, not significantly different from the M4-2. I set them up with a pair of shutter release cables and triggered them simultaneously, with the lens off and watching the shutters: By eye and ear, I could not observe a difference in the opening of the shutters vs when I pressed the release buttons. Saying the M10-M has 10x the lag of the M4-2 in this situation, well, that doesn't meet my observations either in use or in my crude test.

No matter, really. I just use them and they work as I expect. If that is not the same for you, than maybe another camera is preferable. Most SLRs have far more lag than any M, so that's not a viable improvement. Mirrorless ... some are really good, others on the same order as an SLR, and then there's the lens issue. It will take some time in testing to find the right setup that meets what you're looking for.

G

My test of the M10 was with the camera plugged into a computer to talk to the processors and a sensor on the shutter button as per the CIPA standard and taken in the field. It’s not really feasible to measure by perception. Leica says the shutter lag is 18 ms in live view, which it may be in a best case scenario, but it mostly isn’t. It is also temperature influenced and everything slows over 30C. I don’t think the processors in the digital Leicas have enough heat sinks or capacity to shed heat in a warmer environment. Leica says that the M11 series lag is “between 50 and 125 ms” depending on “various circumstances like the lighting situation, shutter type and synchronization status of the light metering”.

 

[Godfrey]

Where are you getting these numbers from? I haven't seen them listed in any of the literature from Leica or tests I've seen.

I don't "measure" by perception, I look to see if I can perceive a difference. Audio sensitivity by ear to distinguish two sharp sounds happening together or apart is about 1/1000 second (1ms) according to the audio engineering experts I've talked to. Visual perception is trickier, but I've found I can distinguish when two shutters start to move if they differ by about a half mm, which for M shutters is in the couple of ms range. It's just a rough look.

When I measure shutter lag, I instrument the shutter release to establish start time and record a trace moving at a known speed on an oscilliscope.... or other similar thing like a marked record player turntable.. This has proven accurate to about 0.5 ms resolution. Haven't done that with the M10s yet. 🙂

But again, I just don't see, feel, or hear much difference between my M10s and the M4-2 in terms of shutter lag modulo the use of Live View/EVF. They're close enough, for my needs, to be the same thing.

I have no experience with an M11, haven't even seen one in the box as yet.

G