fanshaw
Well-known
Yes, T&OE honoured the guarantee supplied with every camera. Is this different in the case of non-Soviet manufacturers? The cameras had a 'bad' reputation for their design, weight and limited specifications and the lack of status they conferred on their owners rather than for poor reliability.
T&OE stated that every camera was checked at their UK workshop before sale. Certainly they were re-packaged and given new quality control documents and re-written instruction manuals, so I see no reason to doubt this.
Aapo
Member
More like a common problem among photography community. I don't really follow RFF Leica threads here but elsewhere I have witnessed bitter Leica discussions lately due to their Monochrome release. And sure we have these everlasting film vs digital "discussions" filled with emotions and reason nowhere to find.
Dralowid
Michael
This year I bought a Skoda...I would never have done that in the '70s....
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
I don't think the FSU section holds any kind of monopoly on that.
When people are emotionally invested in something, they use emotional language, here and elsewhere.
Just look at APUG where people use highly emotional language about everything. Or look at what is currently happening in several places with the M8 warranty debate.
reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
Emotions were bound to emerge once the delusional Leica crowd was faced with the reality that their cheesy precious Barnacks were indeed nothing more than expensive copies of those wonderful little FSUs.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
I've been buying Leicas, FED's, Contaxes and Kievs from the 70's onwards: here are some figures:
German ones: 18 bought; 7 needed repairs and 1 or 2 written off. (I'd be more exact if I could remember precisely. And some were very young when the repairs were needed but not as young as the Digilux 2 with the funny CCD: not that I've counted the digital ones.) Aged from 1926 to mid 90's.
FSU's: 19 bought; 4 repaired. Aged from 1950 to '85.
Looking at my files I see I got a fair price for one when traded in in 1972...
As for QC, how can we judge that all these years later? Saying TOE checked them all doesn't mean a thing as 99.9% could have passed.
And Leica check all their cameras; does that mean their QC is the same?
Also, look at the age of some posters and you wonder how they could possibly have commented on QC which happened before they were born.
Regards, David
I've been buying Leicas, FED's, Contaxes and Kievs from the 70's onwards: here are some figures:
German ones: 18 bought; 7 needed repairs and 1 or 2 written off. (I'd be more exact if I could remember precisely. And some were very young when the repairs were needed but not as young as the Digilux 2 with the funny CCD: not that I've counted the digital ones.) Aged from 1926 to mid 90's.
FSU's: 19 bought; 4 repaired. Aged from 1950 to '85.
Looking at my files I see I got a fair price for one when traded in in 1972...
As for QC, how can we judge that all these years later? Saying TOE checked them all doesn't mean a thing as 99.9% could have passed.
And Leica check all their cameras; does that mean their QC is the same?
Also, look at the age of some posters and you wonder how they could possibly have commented on QC which happened before they were born.
Regards, David
wolves3012
Veteran
I'll comment, since I'm old enough to remember the reputation they had when new (in the UK, at least). The reputation was that they were old-hat, yesterday's technology and lacking modern features but cheap. Pretty much accurate there! I don't recall them having a particularly bad reputation for quality. The owner of an FSU was simply considered inferior because he was a cheapskate or of lower class.
wolves3012
Veteran
Roger,
I think few FSU devotees would claim that they are the equal of a Leica. Even the earlier and best-made examples are not as finely engineered or finished. However, some come much closer than the price differential should justify.
There is more than enough Leica snobbery against any other brand, never mind FSUs. Leica owners seem to be exceptionally poor at realising that other folk either can't afford or don't wish to justify the stratospheric price. They are also particularly defensive of their choice, as are most people who have bought into an expensive brand. As an anecdote of mine, I remember quite clearly the annoyance of the driver of a Porsche Carrera (spelling?) who told me a track through a snow-filled car park was impassable. He was treated to the sight of a humble 2CV negotiating said "impasse" with ease; the route his Porsche had slid all over and got nowhere.
Nevertheless, there does seem to be a surfeit of posts of the "all FSUs are rubbish" variety. Considering that we users of this sub-section clearly do like FSUs and try to help and support oneanother, it's not particularly welcome - unsurprisingly.
We all know that QC wasn't the hottest, we all know that they are based on outdated technology and so on. We don't need to be told any of this. We enjoy them because they (can) produce good results at a bargain-basement price. We enjoy them for the technical challenge. We enjoy them because we can tinker, safe in the knowledge that mistakes won't cost the earth or destroy historic pieces. No doubt there are other reasons too. I'll continue to enjoy mine, warts and all and let others fret over the "inferiority" of my cameras.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
FSU cameras were relatively unknown in North America. Jason Schneider in his interesting column on collectible cameras in Modern Photography, would occasionally mention one- I can recall a description of a FED 2, but these were exotic things that nobody saw. An article in the late 70's described Kievs as Contax clones, but the ones pictured were 4/4A's which had just made an appearance at a NYC dealer. No mention of the history of these cameras or any discussion of the far better versions of the 50's. They were not generally available here before the 90's, when the floodgates opened. So the perception of poor quality was generated here fairly recently, based on rough cosmetics, heavy controls, and generally second rate fit and finish rather than real experience with their reliability in the field.
Personally, I have had very good luck buying from Russian and Ukrainian vendors on ebay. I think the only cameras I have abandoned are ones that I broke by doing something stupid (look for LH threads on some newer Zorkis), or bought with the idea of stripping them for parts.
I have a few rules for buying on ebay:
- don't buy from any vendor selling obvious fakes as the real thing
- assume that if the vendor states that something is untested, it is indeed tested and doesn't work properly
- only assume that something works properly if the vendor explicitly states that it works in the listing, or will give specific answers to questions asked.
- read the feedbacks
- avoid vendors who are obviously overcharging on shipping, or who refuse to combine shipping
I am reasonably handy with a screwdriver, so I tend to look for easily fixed things like screwmount Leicas with sticky slow speeds or dirty viewfinders. If I assume that I will have to pull off the top and clean things up underneath, there are all sorts of bargains to be found.
I think FSU cameras are sort of like old British motorcycles, which I also have. Very good value, and lots of fun, but be prepared to do a bit of wrenching. The alternative of having to pay a repair professional for any needed service can soon cost more than the camera is worth.
Cheers,
Dez
Personally, I have had very good luck buying from Russian and Ukrainian vendors on ebay. I think the only cameras I have abandoned are ones that I broke by doing something stupid (look for LH threads on some newer Zorkis), or bought with the idea of stripping them for parts.
I have a few rules for buying on ebay:
- don't buy from any vendor selling obvious fakes as the real thing
- assume that if the vendor states that something is untested, it is indeed tested and doesn't work properly
- only assume that something works properly if the vendor explicitly states that it works in the listing, or will give specific answers to questions asked.
- read the feedbacks
- avoid vendors who are obviously overcharging on shipping, or who refuse to combine shipping
I am reasonably handy with a screwdriver, so I tend to look for easily fixed things like screwmount Leicas with sticky slow speeds or dirty viewfinders. If I assume that I will have to pull off the top and clean things up underneath, there are all sorts of bargains to be found.
I think FSU cameras are sort of like old British motorcycles, which I also have. Very good value, and lots of fun, but be prepared to do a bit of wrenching. The alternative of having to pay a repair professional for any needed service can soon cost more than the camera is worth.
Cheers,
Dez
pakeha
Well-known
pakeha
Well-known
je2a3
je
very good analogy..gee would`nt a british car sub forum be fun: austin allegro anyone
+ 1, but I vote for a classic mini, better parts availability
Moto-Uno
Moto-Uno
Contrary to the general consensus my Mockba-5s frequently give me pictures
that are totally satisfying.(and yes,I did have to fix a light leak in each ;but, they're older than many members here!)
Regards,Peter
that are totally satisfying.(and yes,I did have to fix a light leak in each ;but, they're older than many members here!)
Regards,Peter
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
" ... I remember quite clearly the annoyance of the driver of a Porsche Carrera (spelling?) who told me a track through a snow-filled car park was impassable. He was treated to the sight of a humble 2CV negotiating said "impasse" with ease; the route his Porsche had slid all over and got nowhere... "
2CV's were/are great in snow (and across ploughed fields). I wish I had one nowadays for the fun of it but the better half worries about being able to steer it after decades of power assisted steering.
Regards, David
" ... I remember quite clearly the annoyance of the driver of a Porsche Carrera (spelling?) who told me a track through a snow-filled car park was impassable. He was treated to the sight of a humble 2CV negotiating said "impasse" with ease; the route his Porsche had slid all over and got nowhere... "
2CV's were/are great in snow (and across ploughed fields). I wish I had one nowadays for the fun of it but the better half worries about being able to steer it after decades of power assisted steering.
Regards, David
wolves3012
Veteran
David,
The steering isn't that bad, it's a lightweight vehicle. Don't get me started, I regret selling mine a few years ago. If only they'd been made with modern rust-protection techniques. Yes, I've driven mine across a ploughed field (the technique is not to go slowly!) and in snow and through floods too deep for most 4WD vehicles.
A unique and unconventional piece of motoring history, the 2CV still holds some world records that are unlikely to be surpassed. 70 years after its design, it's also a far more practical vehicle than most would imagine and a DIY mechanic's dream.
However, all this is rather OT!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The 2CV is without doubt a wonderful and fascinating vehicle, but I'm a bit surprised at the first highlighted bit. After all, the plugs are going to short out in -- what? -- a foot of water. I've driven a Yugo 45 through more than that in New Orleans, with water coming up through the drain-holes in the floor. My Series III Land Rover is supposed to have a maximum safe wading depth of 20 inches but a couple of feet doesn't seem to worry most people.
Second highlight: except (I have been told) for those front inboard drum brakes. Is this true?
I'd buy one but (1) they're now surprisingly expensive here in France and (2) Frances doesn't fancy fencing with the dashboard in order to change gear.
Cheers,
R.
Sparrow
Veteran
Working on the 2CV's brakes, stub-axles or king-pins are not for the faint hearted ... not to mention the hydraulics, roller-bearing swinging arm suspension and general French weirdness
pvdhaar
Peter
I remember my dad borrowing a 105 for a couple of days between selling the old and arrival of a new car.. Despite that 105 being only about 2 or 3 years old at the time, the bodywork actually squeeked when taking a left turn. Right turns would be OK, left turns were really weird.. You'd think that it would break in half if stressed even a tiny bit more. Of course, the engine was dimensioned in such a way that you couldn't accelerate all too fast, so that was something of a failsafe
pvdhaar
Peter
That's what keeps me from getting a Ferrari.. those darned gear flippers behind the steering wheel..
Just kidding of course, but the phrasing was priceless..