Why European pay twice their gear?

[David Murphy]

Life isn't fair. You will be charged what the market can take - otherwise the seller goes out of business. Income taxes in Europe are much higher than in the US (almost factor 2 for Germany). Vacations are much longer, social security is different. Support requirements are different. Taxes are payed for the country you live in. We are far away from a global border-less world, even if the internet makes it seem like it. Move somewhere else if you don't like it.

You live where you live for a reason.

Roland.

Corporations want Globalism so long as it works for them, e.g. offshoring production to countries with cheap labor. When it does not suit them, they want protectionism and controls, e.g. trademarking, attempts to suppress the "grey market", selective tariffs, etc., etc.

Life in Europe can be pretty nice in most ways. Many of my European friends are remarkably rich and the price of consumer goods seems sort of inconsequential to them. I don't know where they got all their money, perhaps not having to pay for education and health care out-of-pocket helps.

 

[David Murphy]

The tax burden is closer to 50% in the UK, considering that we have to pay almost 10% extra "National Insurance" on top of the 40% top-rate tax. And you hit top-rate tax on a professional's salary very quickly, usually by the time you're 30 (with a degree, often even without).

Rip-off Britain... that's what it is. 😉

regards, Jin

Yes, all this is true. Of couse all these policies were democratically achieved. We have a body polltic here that wants to move strongly in your direction, and they will probably succeed. The elites among them always point to European socialist democracies as their ideal. Most of them have never paid a 25% VAT tax on goods as I did when I lived in Sweden many years ago. This is on top of the substantial income tax, liquor tax, etc. I noticed then (mid 80's) that citizens of Germany and France with lower taxes were overall better off than the Swedes. I don't know how things stand over there now.

 

[EmilGil]

Of course it helps, and it also a more fair way of distributing education, health care, security etc etc to all citizens. The problem as I see it, is that too much money is wasted in administration and bureaucracy. The economy is not transparent enough for people to see where all their tax money go.

Again Sweden as an example: before you get your salary, the company has to pay employer fees of 32% and then your income tax at minimum 35-40%. Living a normal life, paying 25% VAT on all goods except foodstuff (6%) and special taxes on most things; electricity, alcohol, tobacco, fuel etc. Yet we have to pay between a fee of £10-20 everytime we even think of contacting a doctor, a visit to the dentist is £50 (if everything is fine, that is!).

If you are rich enough to own more than £120k, you pay 1,5% tax on that fortune. If you own stocks, you pay a dividend tax of 30% after the companies already paid 28% profit tax (and maybe 1,5% fortune tax). If you own your own house, you pay estate tax. Car = car tax + fuel tax. Until recently you had to pay a tax on any gift or heritage worth more than £1.2k.

I'm an engineer, 5 years at university (for free) to get my Masters degree. Starting off at a pretty good salary by Swedish means, slightly less than £2k/month in private enterprises. Compared to continental Europe, thats nothing...

Well, I think I made my point and I'll finish by quoting a former Swedish vice prime minister: "It's sexy to pay taxes" Fortunately, she bought a Toblerone chocolate bar on the official credit card (amongst many other things) and was forced to resign. Instead we got 10 years with an arrogant buffalo as PM... :bang:

 

[dazedgonebye]

Of course it helps, and it also a more fair way of distributing education, health care, security etc etc to all citizens. The problem as I see it, is that too much money is wasted in administration and bureaucracy. The economy is not transparent enough for people to see where all their tax money go.

Again Sweden as an example: before you get your salary, the company has to pay employer fees of 32% and then your income tax at minimum 35-40%. Living a normal life, paying 25% VAT on all goods except foodstuff (6%) and special taxes on most things; electricity, alcohol, tobacco, fuel etc. Yet we have to pay between a fee of £10-20 everytime we even think of contacting a doctor, a visit to the dentist is £50 (if everything is fine, that is!).

If you are rich enough to own more than £120k, you pay 1,5% tax on that fortune. If you own stocks, you pay a dividend tax of 30% after the companies already paid 28% profit tax (and maybe 1,5% fortune tax). If you own your own house, you pay estate tax. Car = car tax + fuel tax. Until recently you had to pay a tax on any gift or heritage worth more than £1.2k.

I'm an engineer, 5 years at university (for free) to get my Masters degree. Starting off at a pretty good salary by Swedish means, slightly less than £2k/month in private enterprises. Compared to continental Europe, thats nothing...

Well, I think I made my point and I'll finish by quoting a former Swedish vice prime minister: "It's sexy to pay taxes" Fortunately, she bought a Toblerone chocolate bar on the official credit card (amongst many other things) and was forced to resign. Instead we got 10 years with an arrogant buffalo as PM... :bang:

To think that anything you get from the government is "free" is a mistake. Governments are the ultimate consumers...they produce nothing and have nothing to give. They can only take and redistribute.
This applies to liberties as well as money and services.
How much they will take and how what they take is redistributed is the only thing left to debate.

 

[Kim Coxon]

Let's not get distracted from photographic discussion by a political one. 😉

Kim

 

[David Murphy]

OK, back to photography. I've noticed that there are some pretty cool cameras lenses available primarily in Europe -- not the USA -- and the prices are good. This includes Exakta and related, Pentacon, various lenses such as those for Praktina, rare Zeiss SLR's, original Voigtlander, offbeat Rollei, etc. There is also more ex-Soviet rangefinder gear for sale and at cheaper prices and definitely cheaper shipping. One can occasionally finds really offbeat LTM lenses made in small quantities there in England and Germany for example.

Most of the above lenses have to be imported here and that adds significantly to the cost.

 

[PaulDalex]

Hi all
and I thank you for your very high profile debate. RFF is an elite place for photography indeed.
BTW I live in Italy.
From the debate more evidence emerged that certain brands leave in the hand of local distributor some national market allowing them to define at their whim and for excessive profit the price list. So it comes that certain products more than double the price comparing USA to EU.
It was so for Minolta and Contax, it is so for Nikon today. If they could hear me I would advise Nikon that that this immoral practice has not brought any good luck to either Minolta and Contax. Nikon is already put under pressure from other newcomer like Sony, Samsung and Panasonic.
The case of Sony is mixed. The alfa 100 is 800$ in USA and 800 € here. This should be the universal and fair rule. The difference in value of currency is tolerable and compensate for differences in taxes and duties. However, when it comes to "pro" lines again Sony acts through a distributor.
Beware Sony that Canon has just brought to the market a killer camcorder (www.camcorderinfo.com).
Finally, I would respond to those that said you live in the country of your choice that it is not as simple as that. When I was a youngster I was offered to work in the States, but some medieval laws on military duties (now abolished) prevented me to accept. Now I am not so far from retire, and I will apply again. But to emigrate is anything but trivial. Believe me.
Of course I visit the States often. But coming back with a 9000 ED in the baggage is not such a nice perspective.
Regards
Pistach

 

[Nando]

I am Canadian and Portuguese. I love Portugal. I yearn to be in Portugal every day. I love Canada too but for me its not the same. The main thing that is preventing me from moving permanently to Portugal is what is being discussed here. In Portugal, I feel that I'm taxed to death. Compared to Canadians, the Portuguese pay twice as much for cars, for example. Almost all of it is taxes. Some things are cheap, food for example, but almost everything is much more expensive. However, unlike Sweden, wages in Portugal are generally much lower than in Canada. I have a cousin in Portugal who, like me, is a secondary school teacher and is close to retiring. Her yearly salary has reached the highest level but I made more as in my first year as a teacher in Canada than she is making now with 30 years of experience under her belt. I have calculated that I would save more money living and working in Canada and spending the entire summers in Portugal every year instead of living and working in Portugal all year round. So this is what we are doing. (I factored owning two homes into the equation too.) The sad thing about Portugal (and I guess the great thing about Canada) is that despite the much heavier taxation on the Portuguese people, the only meaningful thing that Portugal offers over Canada is publicly-funded college and university education.

I still think that anybody could live a very happy and fulfilling life in Portugal. Its a beautiful, safe, lively and highly cultured country. But as a school teacher, I would probably never be able to afford a something like a Leica MP if I lived there. 😀 Even if I could eventually afford one, I probably couldn't justify buying one.

 

[Michiel Fokkema]

That's why I bought my Bronica rf 100mm in the usa. Cost met $500 instead of EUR800. And the customs didn't notice it.
I also buy my inkjet ink in the usa. Saves me about half the money.

Cheers,

Michiel Fokkema

 

[rxmd]

That's why I bought my Bronica rf 100mm in the usa. Cost met $500 instead of EUR800. And the customs didn't notice it.

That works both ways. I get the impression that Leica gear is cheaper over here in Germany than across the pond. Some of the prices you guys pay for M4s and even M6s seem quite high.

Philipp

 

[RML]

17% income tax and £5.35 an hour

Minimum wage in Holland is per Juli 1, 2006: € 1284,60 per month before taxes.
Income tax is 34.4%.
Don't forget to subtract social insurance contributions.

I'd laugh my arse off if I'd have to pay just 17%. 🙂

 

[dazedgonebye]

The lowest earners do not pay taxes over here. In fact, there's a thing called the Earned Income Tax Credit. (As I understand it, many other coutries have similar structures.)
In effect taxes on the lowest earners are decreased to the point of being phased out and even providing refunds beyond the taxes paid in...a "negative tax."

 

[dll927]

Never having lived in Europe, I can't speak from experience. But it's no secret that in too many European countries, governments have long since established so many cute social programs that the taxes needed to pay for them amount to half of peoples' wages.

Thomas Jefferson was quoted (authentically?) as saying that "that government is best which governs least". Somehow, in a lot of places, that notion has not sunk in.

 

[nyx]

I found out interesting thing. CV items are quite cheap here (Czech Republic) compared to US. Even if I'll consider VAT and everything, it's basically the same price or cheaper than cameraquest for example. And that's even with falling dollar.

Almost everything else (photo related) is more expensive of course. I just don't understand it...any ideas why is this?