Why film?

Lately I have asked on occasion why that is and many cite that they don't see why they should pay for something that so many people can do at the stroke of a keyboard or mouse.

I don't doubt this does happen sometimes, but I see many inkjet prints for sale in NYC galleries by big name photographers. And for a lot of $$$. Of course, for color... an inkjet is more archival than a C-Print. Maybe a vintage dye-transfer or cibachrome would have a premium.
 
I don't doubt this does happen sometimes, but I see many inkjet prints for sale in NYC galleries by big name photographers. And for a lot of $$$. Of course, for color... an inkjet is more archival than a C-Print. Maybe a vintage dye-transfer or cibachrome would have a premium.

John,

In my world of B&W I think there is a bias and premium towards wet prints. I'm specifically limiting my remark to the fine art market.

In color it may be a different universe. ???

Cal
 
Unless the pieces are being sold to interior designers or resort / hotel chains, I have found more and more that art buyers want to know how an image came to be. Lately I have asked on occasion why that is and many cite that they don't see why they should pay for something that so many people can do at the stroke of a keyboard or mouse.

I saw this coming a long, long time ago, hence my full commitment to the fine black and white print as a pure analog process. I think it is nearly comical in how it is always photo enthusiasts or photographers who claim the buyer of said piece won't care when in fact a lot of them do, at least in my experience.

I don't know. I go to a lot of galleries and the majority of new work I see are digital C prints or ink-jet. What B&W there is, is often still silver gelatin, but I'm even seeing more B&W ink jet. Go to the site linked below and scroll through the first 2 or 3 pages of gallery reviews and see what you find....

https://collectordaily.com/category/galleries/
 
A
For me the silver wet print has this smoothness, but when compared to one of my Piezography prints my digital prints have higher resolution. I like both prints, but each has its own voice. Same file just printed differently. The digital print looks more like a contact print as far as sharpness and detail.

Cal

I was intrigued with Piezography several years back, but I went to an MIS system (Carbon pigment) due to cost. But honestly when Epson started using B&W inks I thought they were very good and didn't mess with the MIS system anymore.

I am still intrigued by Piezography... maybe one day.
 
I have found more and more that art buyers want to know how an image came to be. Lately I have asked on occasion why that is and many cite that they don't see why they should pay for something that so many people can do at the stroke of a keyboard or mouse.
I understand the distinction from a collector's perspective between a silver gelatin print and an inkjet print. It's a simple analog vs. digital thing. However, once you are over in the inkjet camp, I don't understand the distinction for a collector between an inkjet print from a film image that was scanned and digitally manipulated in Lightroom/Photoshop, and an image that originated from a digital file. I acknowledge that the former is a little more analog, but once you are in the digital domain, it seems a distinction without a significant difference.
 
I think it is nearly comical in how it is always photo enthusiasts or photographers who claim the buyer of said piece won't care when in fact a lot of them do, at least in my experience.

I've actually heard both sides from gallery owners and artists. My mentor always told me there would be value in silver prints, and I believe it. If I were buying photos myself, I'd want real silver prints. But the last time I talked to a photo gallery owner, she claimed it made no difference as long as they are printed BIG. That was her thing. Big prints. So I got a Canon ipf 8300 and made large prints...for a while... then stopped...now the printer is clogged and very costly to repair, even after attempting to replace both heads (at approx $400 each :bang🙂 which did not fix the problem!!

More reason for me wanting to fire up those enlargers.
 
I was intrigued with Piezography several years back, but I went to an MIS system (Carbon pigment) due to cost. But honestly when Epson started using B&W inks I thought they were very good and didn't mess with the MIS system anymore.

I am still intrigued by Piezography... maybe one day.

g,

Piezography is not for everybody, but it pays if you want to print big.

If you print 13x19 or smaller the way to go is with third party color inks.

Are you using Rourke's carbon inks?

In the world of inkjet printing things have really advanced. The new Piezography is much more engineered and advanced than say even three years ago.

If you are considering Piezography try to buy an old X800 or X880. These are the legacy printers that are user servicable and are the most durable Epson Printers.

I got a 7800 for $100.00 because someone was moving to Japan and was not taking the printer with him. The 9 year old printer only made 1802 prints before I got it, so it was seldom used. I used Piezoflush to freshen up the printer and to store it while I raised cash to buy paper. 24 inch paper is about $200.00 a roll and only makes 16 24x36 inch prints.

A big printer uses and consumes mucho ink. Every two weeks I had to top up the 350ml carts. My carts were oversized, so I removed the doors because I could not close them. Currently my big printer is in storage mode loaded with Piezoflush.

One day I hope to attend one of Jon Cone's workshops. I need to learn the ins and outs of fully calibrating my system to be able to go to the next level: print digital negatives for contact printing. No ink changing required on my present Piezography Pro system, but I'll need to buy $150.00 worth of software and an I1 Pro.

Pretty much then a turnkey system where I can profile my printer, papers and inks. Know that this capability extends to my K7 inkset.

How crazy is that?

Cal
 
John,

In my world of B&W I think there is a bias and premium towards wet prints. I'm specifically limiting my remark to the fine art market.

In color it may be a different universe. ???

Cal

Yeah Cal...I would think that in B&W analog world you certainly want a fiber print over a RC print. I'm just not sure how much of a premium there is over an inkjet print (and I truly don't know). I would imagine it is just like anything else. The buyer decides which they like better. Certain work could look better as a darkroom print, certain work can be better as an inkjet. To trivialize inkjet printing as just pressing a button just isn't right. As you certainly know, this is not the truth. A lot of preparation goes into the image prior to hitting that button... but there will always be people who think getting their (or someone else getting their) hands dirty means something is better. It could be, but it isn't always true. Some people can only judge art based on technical concerns and effort, not on concept and message.
 
I have been asked by museums, "Do you have silver prints?"

Bill,

I get asked if my Piezography prints are silver prints. To me they have a look all their own, but it is wishful thinking and excitement of a good print that frames their questions, "Is that a wet print?" or "Is that a silver print?"

Pretty clear to me that in B&W silver prints are held in high esteem.

Funny thing is the confusion when I reveal they are ink jet prints. LOL.

To me a good image is a good image.

I put a good amount of thought into my Digital printing. I only print glossy. With Piezography glossy there is a "gloss overcoat" that gets rid of bronzing and materism, but the benefit of printing glossy is that an ink jet print becomes durable and can handle handling.

One of the things my mentor Robert Rodriguez taught me is the wonder of having someone hold a fiber print in the hand. It truely is a wonderful experience to hold a fine print in the hand. Robert taught me the tactile difference between the Canson Baryta , a cellulose paper, and Platine Fibre Rag, a 100% cotton paper.

Robert says for behind glass use the Baryta (cellulose) to save money, but for a portfolio where someone is going to handle the prints removed from a box of prints use the Platine (100% rag). The rag prints will often make the sale.

I print on Baryta papers for that smooth look. Also know at NYC Meet-Ups I take some of my spit, drool it over one of my prints, and squeege it off the print with my hand to show that my prints are not like other ink jet prints, meaning fragile.

I think this fragility of ink jet prints is the main reason why wet prints are perfered: wet prints are looked upon as being more durable, especially when not protected by glass and a frame.

Interesting to note that I saw some of the very same large Salgado prints from Genesis in a Chelsea gallery that were framed without any glass. WOW with triple exclaimation point.

Cal
 
Yeah Cal...I would think that in B&W analog world you certainly want a fiber print over a RC print. I'm just not sure how much of a premium there is over an inkjet print (and I truly don't know). I would imagine it is just like anything else. The buyer decides which they like better. Certain work could look better as a darkroom print, certain work can be better as an inkjet. To trivialize inkjet printing as just pressing a button just isn't right. As you certainly know, this is not the truth. A lot of preparation goes into the image prior to hitting that button... but there will always be people who think getting their (or someone else getting their) hands dirty means something is better. It could be, but it isn't always true. Some people can only judge art based on technical concerns and effort, not on concept and message.

John,

You know I go crazy, and you have known me to go crazy digital, and crazy analog. Most of all I annoy people, especially my friends. LOL.

You are right. I make no judgement, and perhaps I am fickle. As long as it is crazy-good, who cares if its old school or new school? Anyways I'm glad I do both pretty well.

My gal calls me a flip flopper, LOL and boy does she get annoyed. LOL. Basically she says I never complete anything and I just play around. Oh-well. Why does she love me? LOL.

Cal
 
I don't doubt this does happen sometimes, but I see many inkjet prints for sale in NYC galleries by big name photographers. And for a lot of $$$. Of course, for color... an inkjet is more archival than a C-Print. Maybe a vintage dye-transfer or cibachrome would have a premium.

I became extremely interested in digital printing when Kodak announced they would no longer make any dye transfer products. I recently pulled out a 16 x 20 dye of an image that is now made in pigment. The original image was made on K64. The pigment print in 20 x 24 has more detail and shadow detail and is much closer to the Kodachrome positive than the dye is. And, for a long time, the dye print was the best representation of that image. Cotton Rag Pigment Prints are as archival as a dye print, maybe more so. The scan of the Kodachrome was made wet on a Creo IQ 2. I can easily go to 30 x 40 with Creo wet scans.
 
Cibachrome was hailed as archival but they found it wasn't as advertised and I did a fair amount of Ciba printing (good for bold colors but maybe not so good for subtleties) and I got really sick from the fumes on more than one occasion. When I was in college Charley Swedlund came out for a die transfer work shop. What a great photographer and teacher.

Anybody else shoot any 120 Kodachrome 64 (PKR 120)? I still had a few rolls in my freezer until a few years back.
 
Cibachrome was hailed as archival but they found it wasn't as advertised and I did a fair amount of Ciba printing (good for bold colors but maybe not so good for subtleties) and I got really sick from the fumes on more than one occasion. When I was in college Charley Swedlund came out for a die transfer work shop. What a great photographer and teacher.

Anybody else shoot any 120 Kodachrome 64 (PKR 120)? I still had a few rolls in my freezer until a few years back.

No, never any 120. For many years I did all my work primary in 35mm and in 4x5 when appropriate or requested.

I did a long test of Cibachrome. At one point I hung a bunch of prints in a client's lobby. It got about an hour of indirect winter sun through a small bank of windows. Every time I visited the client, I would check the prints. After about six months, the yellows started to fade; then the greens went. There was also UV from overhead lighting. For those prints to have changed more than a C print in the same amount of time was an eye opener. No more Ciba. I made lots of C prints using 4x5 internegs. They held up for a few years. But, in the end, I saw some once beautiful prints look so bad - when hung in a good photo environment, that I didn't want to claim them as mine. I wonder at the big amounts of money being paid for C prints at auction. The newer process is better but, to spend $100k plus for images that were printed years back is stupid to my thinking. They must have changed a lot over the years?.

I don't know all of the image media well on this list, but do know that Cindy Sherman printed most of her large work on C (Chromogenic) print media. The buyers must know what they were getting into?

As per an earlier post: I've found quite a few photo buyers - collectors, as knowledgeable as I am on the processes I use, and in some instances, far more knowledgeable of the history of the process and history of important adopters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_photographs

It sure is nice to see Edward Weston on that list, if even, at the bottom.
 
Are you using Rourke's carbon inks?

Cal

Yes, I was. Not anymore.

I got a 7800 for $100.00 because someone was moving to Japan and was not taking the printer with him. The 9 year old printer only made 1802 prints before I got it, so it was seldom used. I used Piezoflush to freshen up the printer and to store it while I raised cash to buy paper. 24 inch paper is about $200.00 a roll and only makes 16 24x36 inch prints.
Cal

I had a 7900 offered to me for free and I declined it. I gave it to a freind. I already had the ipf 8300 (44" printer) and the 7900 was ink clogged. I now wish I took it. Because my friend gave it to another friend who now clams he got the ink unclogged - which according to all the Epson forums was impossible without an expensive service.

A big printer uses and consumes mucho ink. Every two weeks I had to top up the 350ml carts. My carts were oversized, so I removed the doors because I could not close them. Currently my big printer is in storage mode loaded with Piezoflush.

One day I hope to attend one of Jon Cone's workshops. I need to learn the ins and outs of fully calibrating my system to be able to go to the next level: print digital negatives for contact printing. No ink changing required on my present Piezography Pro system, but I'll need to buy $150.00 worth of software and an I1 Pro.

Pretty much then a turnkey system where I can profile my printer, papers and inks. Know that this capability extends to my K7 inkset.

How crazy is that?

Cal

Pretty crazy, but I understand. I'm not even a Pro and I have 3 scanners, three printers, 4 enlargers, a machine that prints IlfoChromes, and about 30 cameras ranging from compact to 4x5. I think at this point I would rather invest in getting some wet printing going for a change. I'm bummed about my ipf. Even after spending nearly 1K in parts to fix it, that didn't do the trick. A Canon tech needs to come in and fix it at this point and they want $1500! I think I will have to wait for an actual project that pays to go fourth with that. For my hobby, I just can't justify it. A learning lesson with these big printers. Never leave them for a long time without printing.
 
I did some Ciba prints in college and wow, the punch of those colors. I compared some Cibas I did with some color Inkjets and the Cibas seemed to have more impact.
 
Yes, I was. Not anymore.



I had a 7900 offered to me for free and I declined it. I gave it to a freind. I already had the ipf 8300 (44" printer) and the 7900 was ink clogged. I now wish I took it. Because my friend gave it to another friend who now clams he got the ink unclogged - which according to all the Epson forums was impossible without an expensive service.



Pretty crazy, but I understand. I'm not even a Pro and I have 3 scanners, three printers, 4 enlargers, a machine that prints IlfoChromes, and about 30 cameras ranging from compact to 4x5. I think at this point I would rather invest in getting some wet printing going for a change. I'm bummed about my ipf. Even after spending nearly 1K in parts to fix it, that didn't do the trick. A Canon tech needs to come in and fix it at this point and they want $1500! I think I will have to wait for an actual project that pays to go fourth with that. For my hobby, I just can't justify it. A learning lesson with these big printers. Never leave them for a long time without printing.

G,

Wow another crazy like me. Crazy is good I say. LOL.

It seems getting a set of spare carts and loading Piezoflush can unclog many a head. Also the 7900 could still be useful because it has more ink channels than required to do Piezography. Basically they can program around the dead channel.

I live in Madhattan so imagine sneaking in a 135 pound 7800 into a 650 square foot one bedroom apartment and hiding it when your girl is not looking. Not easy to hide $10K worth of paper and inks. LOL.

If I had my way I would start a Epson printer storage yard of X800 and X880's. Call me a Hill-Billy but I would learn how to rebuild them. I already downloaded the 600 page service manual. There are so many people that are getting rid of clogged printers. Had the opportunity to get a free 9880 from the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Had another free pick-up of a 3880. Now I have remorse and wish I got the 9880 and put it into Public Storage.

Add onto that my gal is a celeb and fashion blogger. Woman's clothes, shoes and cosmetics are everywhere. All high end stuff, some boxes remain unopened.

It does not much crazier than this.

Cal
 
Any big prints I do are made by outside labs. I learned early on. I supply them with a finished target print and a file. So far, so good. I try to be intelligent about my photo spending. A printer wreck means money I can't use for photo travel. Photo travel means making new stuff and that's most important to me. I try to deal with as little hardware as I can

Some might find this interesting..
Richard hurt his back and could no longer pack his 8x10 camera equipment. He got a digital camera and now does his own printing. He's the only photographer handled by The Fraenkel Gallery who works with digital cameras (when I last asked). I don't know about Pace - MacGill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Misrach
.
https://fraenkelgallery.com/
 
Big brown left a package for me yesterday with a brand spank'n new M 10. Wasn't expecting it for a few more months. It is really one sweet camera. With the ISO dial on top now I can see all of my setting by just looking down at the camera. I will have it on a job Monday but i will try and get out to do some street work with it tomorrow.
 
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