why i am upset with leica and not m8

msadat

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it is very clear that leica knew about these issues yet did nothing to inform us before buying the m8. and suprised all with the issues.

just what the hell were they thinking? i mean it took but hours for the reports to come in. This is someone head's should roll and it is the CEO's. this was the single most important release from leica in the past ?? years?


it seems the fix will be 200usd a pop for coding and a filter.😡


i am really at loss, i wanted a M8 so bad and now that i have it, i am upset

should we sue leica? my investmnet in M is a lot more than the m8 costs and and getting the m8 was the most logical step in this system.
 
Isn't everything that requires little microchips like that? Playstations, Xboxes, every generation of Digi P&S has issues and fixed on the next one.
I'm guessing, just like the other big players, they get parts from many different manufacturers and if there was a defect in one of them...well, you get the idea.
I would guess its just like debugging software. Is the banding issue with the screen? With the wires in between the LCD and the chip? The software in the chip? The sensor of the chip? The wires from the chip to something else....yikes.
 
people are obviously forgetting back when cameras were first coming into the 'consumer market' the quality control was so poor that a large number were returned and replaced in the shop. that's just how it was.

A 90% functioning camera is better than nothing. No doubt leica will fix this in due course at no cost to the consumer, it's their reputation on the line.
 
If I had just spent that kind of money I would be upset also. But let's see what happens, hopefully they will fix this correctly and all the flames will go away. I kept thinking I need one of these for my investment in lenses, all old ones. But I can dream.
I hope it works out for everyone with this ir issue, I would like to see Leica make it.
wbill
 
jamriman said:
Does your M8 have this IR issue? Lets give Leica a chance to work out a plan before crucifying them.
They all do. The IR issue is a result of Leica's design decisions.

It might be useful for RFF to create a sticky FAQ about the M8 problems. There seem to be a lot of continuing misconceptions about facts that are not in dispute.
 
they knew about the problem, they could have dealt with the issues and be upfront, yet they waited till after a fact, hence a bad roll out.
 
msadat said:
they knew about the problem, they could have dealt with the issues and be upfront, yet they waited till after a fact, hence a bad roll out.
There were a lot of things going on. They took the stance that they would deliver what they said they would when they said they would. Taken too ridgidly this may have meant even if flawed in some way. We should have guessed something was goofy when they didn't release or allow release of images. On the other hand maybe they didn't know, like the woman that I worked with that went to the hospital, because she didn't feel good and gave birth to a fine son. How could she not know she was pregnant?
Part of the problem is that we the buyers jumped the gun and bought the hype and the dealer talk of waiting for months for one.
I like mine and know it will get sorted, but I agree that reputations have been soiled. I also know that part of it is that we are angry at ourselves at possibley gotten fooled.
Bob
 
jamriman said:
"but the roll out sucked"
Please explain? I'm not up on my slang. Thanks

The product introduction to the marketplace was handled poorly, well, rather badly, in fact, it was basically a snafu.
 
Gents... I think this *may* be the end of Leica. The development cost of M8 must be huge and now they can't attract any more buyers with this sort of fundamental flaw.

I don't know about you all but I will not buy it if I have to use a filter; period.

There are very few Leica customers and they are pretty pissed off about this.
 
I don't own an M8 (yet?). I learned a long time ago to never buy Version 1.0 of anything that contains or controls a microprocessor. It may not be "right," but it's a sad fact of life today that early adopters are beta testers who are paying for the privilege.

But so far, I'm optimistic about the long-term prospects of the M8. I base this optimism on some very critical perusal of other people's posted examples, including some full-sized RAW files.

At the risk of sounding glib, I have a suggestion for M8 buyers currently in a purple-tinged funk. Set the M8 to in-camera black and white, and shoot it that way--at least until Leica announces its fix and policies. This will temporarily remove the source of irritation until you know what the future holds. It will also give you a chance to appreciate the camera's good qualities without distraction.

The IR issue is a problem, yes, but we already know that it can be fixed with a filter over the lens. And look what you get in return. When I look closely at M8 files, I see edges that look like edges. I see details that, as I magnify them, don't smear out before I can see the individual pixels. When Sean Reid says that the M8 can draw like a medium-format film camera, believe him. This quality is the result of no anti-aliasing filter and a thinner-than-usual IR filter, plus great lenses. That IR filter needs to be thinner than in DSLRs due to the higher angle of incidence inherent in RF lenses.

It was a real-world trade-off, and personally, I think it was a good trade. A filter on the lens can remove IR, but no filter can add details removed by the camera design. One of the things that has bothered me about every DSLR I've tried (including the one I currently own) is that slightly soft look that turns every fine knife-edge into a slightly blurred gradient. Sharpening helps, but often at the result of an artificial look that screams "digital" to me. If the M8's better acutance comes at the price of needing to mount a filter on my lenses, maybe I'll decide to grin and bear it.

How Leica handled the issue is another matter. The M8's IR problem is understandable from a technical standpoint. There may have been some "groupthink" blindness at Leica, plus a need to release the camera no matter what due to financial and organizational issues. Regardless, the "magenta surprise" was bound to create Internet firestorms and conspiracy theories once the images were out there for all to see.

Now, what's done is done. How Leica handles the resulting anger and apprehension will probably determine the M8's success or failure. Rightly or wrongly, people feel betrayed, and that is what the movie industry calls box-office poison. I think Leica's actions next week will be more important than whether some black polyester turned purple this week.

If I were Leica, I would buy up a sizable stock of IR filters, and give away a couple with every new M8 sold, retroactively--whether or not the customer buys coded lenses. I would also implement a menu-entry system for lenses, similar to the Nikon D200. Why? Because the better the M8 can handle all the M and LTM-mount lenses each potential customer already owns, the better it will sell. I suspect this will mean Leica will sell a few less lenses next year, but they will sell many more M8s. And they will probably sell more lenses in the long run if the M8 is a success.

--Peter
(watching and waiting like the rest of you)
 
It is a design flaw, mostly sensor design, it makes no difference version 1 or version 2, they just have to change design, the question is why did they design like this? that what happens when they don`t send me beta M8 😀
 
I don't know if one call it a design flaw if a camera can record more colours than the eye can see. One could argue that the human eye is flawed. However, I agree with all those that say Leica should have told before the camera was released. OTOH, the camera as it is turns out to be awesome and not unusable as some here would suggest. If the camera should have been designed differently is another question. In that case it would have probably not produced the kind of photographs that it does and one could indeed have "just as well bought a 5D". It is, I agree, a beast that needs to be mastered,but one needs just to look at the gallery to see that suggestions like "it is only usuable in B&W"are uninformed malicious nonsense. In practice the effect only turns up when shooting JPEG's, which, although it is not a thing one should do often, will be corrected in firmware in most cases, or if one uses an incorrect profile in C1, which unfortunately also includes the supplied M8 profile. When handled properly, magenta shift occurs only rarely and usually in predictable situations. So, after firmware update, my guess is that in general photography one will need an IR cut filter in about 5 % of the shots, which is acceptable in my eyes. However, if one is a professional funeral photographer, it will be neccesary always to use the IR filter.
The light spillover issue (it is not banding, that is something else), is 99% certain to be fixable in firmware. I don't think there has been a professional camera that has been introduced up till now that did not need a firmware update for "issues"at some point, so it is silly to call that unexpected.

And that is why the whole hullabulloo is imo mostly hysterical Internet frenzy and totally overblown.
In a way this is a compliment to Leica, as it seems some posters expected to be turned into instant Magnum photographers by the purchase of this camera.
 
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problems happen, sometimes the manufacturers are unaware about it, for example we have had here Dell GX270 workstations for about two+ years and suddenly in the beginning of september we started having problems, and a stupid thing like a thermal sensor on the graphic card failing is rendering the full workstation inoperant... we're now at more than 800 faulty workstations, in two months..

I hope for all of you who invested such astronomic amounts of money that it's just a software problem.

Sincerely,
Max
 
jaapv said:
I don't know if one call it a design flaw if a camera can record more colours than the eye can see.
"Design flaw" normally means some decision at design stage that has unanticipated effect impeding normal function. The camera records the colors that human eye can't see, and portrays them as colors that human eye can see, replacing the original visible-spectrum tone. Yes, it is a design flaw unless you were designing a camera doing exactly that.

It's been so disappointing, since the camera itself handled so great and solid 🙁 Not even so much the flaw part, but Leica luring the customers into buying the product imperfect at best.
 
Matthew Runkel said:
They all do. The IR issue is a result of Leica's design decisions.

It might be useful for RFF to create a sticky FAQ about the M8 problems. There seem to be a lot of continuing misconceptions about facts that are not in dispute.

There is a subforum in the M8 forum titled M8 Problems.
 
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