Why shutter priority?

[cmedin]

I can't help but notice that several of the classic rangefinders had full AE and/or shutter priority, but aperture priority doesn't seem very common. Was shutter priority easier to implement? Or was there another reason they went this route?

 

[uhligfd]

First off, it appears to be easier to fiddle with the aperture and keep one's right finger on the release and ready to use the wind mechanism, than to take it off and fiddle with the top of the camera shutter wheel as the composition/lighting changes.

So, maybe for speed in manual mode one would prefer a fixed shutter setting and make small adjustments on the lens barrel (aperture) as one shoots. ... My 0.5 cents worth.

But wait a second, you are talking about AE cameras with speed priority. Then, of course, the easier ability to fiddle with the lens opening makes no sense when locking in the shutter speed (that is so hard to adjust..). It should have been the other way around. Who knows? A good question!

 

[ferider]

For the interchangable lens 35mm RFs, neither LTM, M, Contax or Nikon mount
allow aperture to camera coupling. So CLE, M7, Bessa R*a, etc. can
only implement automatic shutter due to mount restrictions.

For fixed lens cameras I don't know. Maybe RF users are more "aperture conscious".

The Olympus SP has both, BTW.

Roland.

PS: 1:10PM PST changed "shutter priority" to "automatic shutter".

 

[FrankS]

Technically, it must have been easier to design and build a shutter priority camera since, as you've noted, many '70s AE cameras operate this way.

Practically, it doesn't really matter much, since you control the other exposure parameter (aperture) indirectly with the first (shutter speed).

If you are after a shallow DOF, simply select a faster shutter speed which forces the camera to select a wide lens opening.

 

[cmedin]

Oh, I know that it doesn't make much of a difference in practice. However, almost every person I know uses aperture priority far far more than shutter priority just because they tend to think about the DOF primarily and it makes logical sense for them to stick in Av mode. Thus the question.

 

[bcostin]

I remember Canon claimed that shutter priority was more practical because it cut down on the number of blurred photos. In their SLR line this was apparently appealing to sports photographers, and for consumers it meant that you wouldn't inadvertently shoot with a slow shutter speed and have movement ruin the shot.

I don't know whether this was a marketing rationalization or a design decision. It's hard to tell sometimes.

 

[fishtek]

Personally, I prefer shutter-preferred. The "blur" factor is the driving reason, and I don't pay lots of attention to DOF. But...that's just me. As was noted above, it's an easy jigger to come up with any combination of speed/aperture that you want. Having one variable locked in makes it easier to deal with the other, maybe?

I usually set my camera to the fastest speed I think I'm gonna need, based on light levels, with the aperture setting as a secondary consideration. YMMV.

Regards!
Don

 

[imajypsee]

In a rangefinder, fixed lens, the distance the photographer will be from the subject means that the DOF is going to be greater. Most rangefinder photos aren't made at close distances, so the aperture can be wider and still have the field in focus.
Here's two photos made at f/1.7 on a Canon GIII QL17:

click the photos for a larger version

this one was made very close (the statue is about 18 inches tall)


this one was made from a distance of about ten feet

the GIII has a focal length of 40mm so the shutter speed can be very slow and the aperture wide and camera shake is not so much of a problem. If I were photographing in bright light, the camera would choose a smaller aperture and I can adjust it based on how fast I want the shutter to open and close. In SLR life, I use aperture priority most often, so the GIII is a great way for me to think in another direction.

those are my thoughts on the topic.

 

[drewbarb]

For the interchangable lens 35mm RFs, neither LTM, M, Contax or Nikon mount
allow aperture to camera coupling. So CLE, M7, Bessa R*a, etc. can
only implement shutter priority due to mount restrictions.

Roland.

This is correct for SLR's, but it doesn't hold true for RF cameras. SLR's need aperture linkage from the lens to the body, so you can focus and compose wide open for the brightest image, then stop the aperture down to shoot. Aperture priority only requires an electronically controlled shutter linked to the meter. If you are measuring at working aperture, as RF's always are, no linkage is required. This is how the M7 works, for instance. Since there's no TTL viewing with RF's, there's no need for the lens ever to be at other than working aperture- so no linkage is required for AE.

Many cameras since the 70's have had aperture priority- often as the only auto mode the camera offered. As cmedin points out, many photographers prefer auto shooting with D.O.F. as the main factor they want to control. As long as the shutter speed is holdable, you are fine. Personally, the only reason I'd want a meter built into a camera would be to get A.E. Shutter priority makes sense sometimes- anytime freezing the action is the primary goal, for instance- but I work with aperture priority 90% of the time I use any auto mode.

 

[oscroft]

For the interchangable lens 35mm RFs, neither LTM, M, Contax or Nikon mount
allow aperture to camera coupling. So CLE, M7, Bessa R*a, etc. can
only implement shutter priority due to mount restrictions.

But those all do aperture priority. It's because there is no aperture coupling that they can't do shutter priority.

 

[ferider]

See my correction.

 

[mervynyan]

First, many RF shutter can go about 1000, so in a bright day, have to close down the lens to f8 at 1/1000. In other word, you can't implement AP from f8 and larger, so what is the point?

Second, when everyone talks about step-less shutter, it is not entirely true. The EV value determines aperture and shutter speed, if your meter is very good, which can go to 1/10 stop, your shutter may not go for a 1/10 increment. Try any of hight-end SLR you will see step-less is a joke.

Having said that, ZI is AP, M8 and other fews are too. That will depends what your definition of "Classic" is, whether is before the electronic age.

cheers,

 

[NickTrop]

Take it for what it's worth because I can't find the source but I think that Yashica had patents on their aperture priority system and it's "possible" that other fixed lens RF makers just stayed away, and shutter priority were easier to produce. The reason I say this is because I read that Minolta leased the technology from Yashica for a while in the 70's for their Hi-Matic line - but I can't source this and may not be accurate. However, this is somewhat backed up in Wikipedia (believe it or not there's a Minolta Hi-Matic entry!):

"The Hi-Matic E of 1971 was a much-improved version of the C with a 40 mm f/1.7 lens and a rangefinder. It used the same Electro Control automatic exposure system found on the Yashica Electro cameras. The E was followed by a succession of increasingly inexpensive models, the Hi-Matic F in 1972, the Hi-Matic G in 1974, and the Hi-Matic G2 in 1982. The Electro Control system was abandoned after the F in favor of a simpler system."

So, infering from the above, the Hi-Matics had "the same" Electro control systems as the Yashicas implies some kind of patent issue and/or a capital barrier due to re-tooling for an electric Aperture Priority camera, perhaps. The Electros were enormously successful, so given patent issues, manufacturing complexities incorporating electronics (as simple as their technology may seem now) into what were nearly 100% mechanical devices, probably didn't make business sense.

I like fixed lens RFs and prefer Aperture Priority to Shutter Priority but like all manual best of all. Some lament that the Yashica Electros don't give you shutter speed detail, but IMO its a beautifully implemented AP system and you can guess fairly accurately what the SS is...

I would rather directly control aperture than "manipulate" it indirectly by wonking around with the shutter speeds.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

I can't help but notice that several of the classic rangefinders had full AE and/or shutter priority, but aperture priority doesn't seem very common. Was shutter priority easier to implement? Or was there another reason they went this route?

Which classic rangefinders actually did have true shutter priority? Was it really more common than aperture priority? The high-end Canonets had true shutter priority (the 28's did not), but wich other?

 

[Kim Coxon]

The reason for shutter priority in the fixed lens RF's is quite logical when you think about it. Most were produced before the widespread adoption of electronic shutters. without an electronically controlled shutter, you can't have aperture priority. With shutter priority, it is a relatively simple mechanical linkage to adjust the aperture.

Kim

 

[Kim Coxon]

Konica S2 etc, several of the Olys and Yashica Lynx are just a few I can think off.

Kim

Which classic rangefinders actually did have true shutter priority? Was it really more common than aperture priority? The high-end Canonets had true shutter priority (the 28's did not), but wich other?

 

[cmedin]

And several of the Minoltas.

 

[rogue_designer]

The reason for shutter priority in the fixed lens RF's is quite logical when you think about it. Most were produced before the widespread adoption of electronic shutters. without an electronically controlled shutter, you can't have aperture priority. With shutter priority, it is a relatively simple mechanical linkage to adjust the aperture.

Kim

That's far and away the best explanation I've heard. Thanks Kim.

Which Lynx btw - my 5000 is metered manual.

Cheers.

 

[douwe]

vivitar 35ES on the operation table

vivitar 35ES on the operation table

I just operated on my vivtar 35ES. The aperture refused to open up when I pressed the shutter button. It turned out that the needle of the pot-meter has an extention that blocks the travel of the lever that closes the aperture. The extention part fell off.

This is illustrated perfectly why Kim is right; there is no fancy technology needed to come up with the apropriate aperture if the needle of the lightmeter mechanically blocks the travel of the aperture.

This must have been the first succesful approach to semi-automatic exposure, using just a pot meter and regular mechanics.

The vivitar works again, I'm about to shoot some film with it...

Cheers,
Douwe

 

[titrisol]

I would think so yes

I can't help but notice that several of the classic rangefinders had full AE and/or shutter priority, but aperture priority doesn't seem very common. Was shutter priority easier to implement? Or was there another reason they went this route?