why Zeiss Ikon rather than Bessa?

[ruben]

Folks, I have read all this thread till now in a single stroke and found it quite thrilling.

Now there is a question it seems to me you have not addressed: which camera offers more value per dollar.

This is not the same as asking which camera is better. Here the consensus goes in favour of the ZI.

Thus for example if you think that a ZI is going to last for decades while the Bessa seems to be so so built (I am not expressing my opinion) - Then obviously the ZI is not only more expensive but more convenient as well.

On the contrary, if the differences are more on the subjective feeling of smoothness and the likes, then the great differences in price become arquibly justifiyed,

Of course this doesn't contradict by any means that any person can counsciously pay for comfort and better feeling or better look. And I have no problem at all with these, that I like too.

But back to my question. Dollar per convenience: which do you vote for ?

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[PlantedTao]

Meter Coverage

Meter Coverage

Mfogiel - can you explain:
" the AE, once you learn how to use it ( find uot about the vertical coverage of the meter) is perfect..."

I have found the metering near flawless on my ZI, but would like to know your thoughts.
Thanks.

Jason

 

[ferider]

Isn't the ZI's shutter electronically controlled? The R[23]M shutters do not require batteries, so how could they be the same? Anyway I don't think Cosina builds the shutters themselves. It could just be that the supplier updated their design.

I was referring to the actual mechanical double metal shutter, not its release mechanism, Sam. Starting with the R[23]M, Bessa shutter "curtains" have a white line, just like the ZI. Not that it's important, just an example that there was some backwards influence.

Best,

Roland.

 

[Tom A]

I have Bessa's, Leica's and Zeiss and use them all!
The Zeiss ZM has the best viewfinder EVER in the history of rangefinders. I tend to use it as my AE camera so the readout is not critical, but I agree that if I have to look for it, it is not the best of them.
The shutter and advance is very smooth, like a well worn in Leica M! My only beef with it is a rather stiff rewind function and the fact that it is at the bottom (How the hell I am supposed to see if the film goes through properly without turning the camera upside down!). I also like the "over-ride" button at the back. Take a ground reading, press the button and it will hold that reading for 20 sec - or until you press it again!
The combination of a 35f2 Biogon and the ZM will spoil you forever! Nothing like it out there (and that comes from a confirmed M2 addict!!!!).
Pair it with a R4M Bessa for the 21 (21f4.5 C Biogon of course) and a 50f2 Planar or 50 C Sonnar 50f1.5 and you are set for a long time of shooting.

 

[Quercus]

I tend to think the "feel" idea is more about an expected feel of quality - for such a long time quality enginneering meant brass even under leather or leatherette it still feels like brass. The latest lamborgini feels like plastic but it is certainly a better made car than earlier alloy or at worse steel versions. I think this is what has happened with cameras for so long quality was brass so a brass bodied camera begins to feel like quality whether it is better engineered, longer lasting or not.

More modern magnesium based alloys have a naturally different feel.

BTW Tom being a dedicated Rollei 35 freak the upside down rewind feels so natural - also the build quality of the ZI feels a like a rollei (do not confuse this with the design and longevity of early rollei electro mechanical parts) the ZI has for some reason a more naturally rollei feel than the rollei RF(bessa R2)

 

[Sam N]

I also like the "over-ride" button at the back. Take a ground reading, press the button and it will hold that reading for 20 sec - or until you press it again!

This sounds great. The button on the R3A has to be held down, which is a little bit annoying.

I was referring to the actual mechanical double metal shutter, not its release mechanism, Sam. Starting with the R[23]M, Bessa shutter "curtains" have a white line, just like the ZI. Not that it's important, just an example that there was some backwards influence.

I see. My R3A's shutter has a white segment as well, but it's one of the later ones that says Bessa on the top instead of the front, so maybe this has changed.

Anyone have an example of the R2A/R3A shutter sound vs the ZI?

 

[varjag]

I tend to think the "feel" idea is more about an expected feel of quality - for such a long time quality enginneering meant brass even under leather or leatherette it still feels like brass.

A lot of it is sure subjective, but some things that feel better built are actually better built.

This Tuesday I had to board some 9 wind power turbines in Baltic seabed, and climb up on 4 of them (70m/230' above sea level). I had with me my M4, Komura 200mm, CV Ultron 35 and Jupiter-3. They were in hip pockets of float suit (safety regulations prohibit stuff dangling on straps), the space there is limited so a lot of banging was involved. That's in addition to substantial vibration level normal at operating turbine.

So after 11 hours and 2 rolls there, J-3 had its optical head unscrewed from vibration, and Komura aperture click-stops stopped clicking. M4, more complex device than any of the lenses, was operating as fine as before. No misalignment, no visible parts unscrewing, nothing - just very dirty. Ultron was fine too, although its hood unscrewed and I nearly lost it at some point.

Of course what has been said there about weight and feel being misleading still can apply, but more often stuff that feels flimsy *is* flimsy, although there can be surprises. So let's say, put the stuff on vibration stand: the one that falls apart last has the best build there 🙂

 

[Quercus]

varjag I agree totally - just think that what we percieve as differences between two high quality items can be a generational thing - those of us used to brass tend to always "feel" brass is intrinsicly higher quality which is why possibly m2-4 are percieved by a lot of users as being a higher quality than latter even leica models:

I forget where I read this but a study into the egonomics and tactile responses to some products showed that if a certain level of flaw was built into some totally automated products then people began to like them more than flawless - a harp back to the idea of hand made over model T maybe?

 

[BillBingham2]

So let's say, put the stuff on vibration stand: the one that falls apart last has the best build there 🙂

Or they used the most lock-tight 😱

B2 (;->

 

[goo0h]

My only beef with it is a rather stiff rewind function and the fact that it is at the bottom (How the hell I am supposed to see if the film goes through properly without turning the camera upside down!).

Actually, I've come to really like this. I'm using the Zeiss side grip and so not using one of the half cases. When I advance the film, I can just barely feel the rewind folding lever thing rotating in the palm of my left hand. So I don't have to be *looking* for it, I can just *feel* it as I'm advancing the film along. I've come to really appreciate this added quirk.

 

[amateriat]

My personal warm spot for the ZI: its design is practically a bosom buddy to the Hexar RF, which stands as my personal all-time favorite rangefinder. Switching from one body to the other is almost as effortless as I could ask for. And, yes, automatic frameline setting IS important to me., almost as much so as the ZI's EBL. I still plan to add a ZI to my working roster as soon as funds allow.


- Barrett

 

[mfogiel]

Planted Tao,
The ZI metering is center weighted, BUT it is more extended to the left part of the frame, therefore, if you shoot a vertical with a sky in it, you should raise the RIGHT part of the camere, where the shutter release is, in order not to underexpose due to excessive presence of the sky in the metering zone.

ruben,
The camera which will give you most bang for the buck, is the one with the better lens... ;-)

 

[ruben]

ruben,
The camera which will give you most bang for the buck, is the one with the better lens... ;-)

Hi mfogiel,
since both bodies mount the same lenses I understand you have purposedly thrown a jocke for us to enjoy.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Pherdinand]

Funny...The exact same question could have been asked fifty years ago😀

 

[Quercus]

I couldnt agree more Philipp. My personal favourite camera is an early 80's rollei sl2000f which is not the most "reliable" camera ever made (electronics with excessive battery drain) but I treat it with kid gloves so it will last another 30 years at least - however in slr my film work horses are pentax mx and me super- these do last 50years but i go through one every 10 year or so - the same with rollei 35s so if a zi that gets used every week lasts me 10 years I will be happy - in digital if my istD lasts another year I will be very happy but then 20,000 shots in 4 years is enough for any system probably

 

[ruben]

I've just taken a good look at how my M5, which has that feel, looks after half a year of accompanying me in Central Asia on my daily work. It's pretty banged up. For the time being it's still working well, but it's beginning to feal rougher than it did a year ago. If I take conclusions from that regarding my personal usage pattern, no camera will last 50 years of use with me, Leica or otherwise, so I might just as well have chosen a ZI 🙂

So judging from that, I wonder how a camera needs to be handled if it's supposed to last for 50 years and how, if handled that way, it might be missing the point of a camera 😉

Philipp

I don't see any reason why your camera is "beginning to feel rougher than it did a year ago", unless already a year ago it was nearing its last CLA blossoming period.

When I speak about cameras lasting for decades, and perhaps other members too, I take into account periodic maintenenace and even parts exchange, to some common sense parameters.

Accordingly, if you send now your Leica for a good CLA, it should work back as smooth as at its smoothest times.

Besides this, I am glad to see you around, you have been elsewhere for some months and I missed you.

Cheers,
Ruben

Latter Addendum,
Upon Quercus remmark, I must put it clear that pro shooters using their cmeras at a very high pace per week are very likely to extenuate their cameras at much shorter period even with delicate handling.

Yet I think is good time for me to pull out from this thread.

 

[rxmd]

I don't see any reason why your camera is "beginning to feel rougher than it did a year ago", unless already a year ago it was nearing its last CLA blossoming period.

Well, it did have a CLA when I got it and at some point it will need another one. In the meantime, it did get dropped pretty hard once when I was hit by a car while carrying it underneath my jacket, and it got soaked in rain and used between +30 and -25 degrees. Leicas aren't water resistant, and it now has several extra bumps and a crack along the edge of the viewfinder window. It also has a growing patch of missing leatherette at the edge.

It also is my camera now. It has made me a lot more critical with respect to my own pictures, and with respect to how I use cameras. Confusingly enough, it has made my pictures a lot worse initially. Rangefinders are increasingly becoming wideangle beasts for me. I begin to understand the guys buying R4s. I don't use a rangefinder for anything over 40mm now. For anything over that I increasingly stick to SLRs (and eventually get a 5D or something in the future).

I'm rather certain that the legendary durability of Leicas in the hand of professional photojournalists can be attributed at least partially to the availability of professional repairpeople to said photojournalists. 🙂

Besides this, I am glad to see you around, you have been elsewhere for some months and I missed you.

Thanks! I've just been busy in less than accessible parts of the world and RFF is not very enjoyable if you share a modem line with ten guys at your institute 🙂

Philipp

 

[Quercus]

We seem to have gone way off the original thread into a how high up the wall nikon and lieca can leave damp patches. So to bring it back..... for me the reason to go for a ZI over a bassa (I have both well actually one and a few of the others) is that if you can afford the zi and it not affect the glass you can also afford or are going to use then the zi has to be the choice just because of the RF both EBL and luminosity ... though a comparitive test I would like to see is the tolerances between the ZI rf and an M7 rf which has the lowest degree of error - something we never seem to ask about but a =/-2-3% difference is actually quite a fair ebl factor that is never taken into the equation. From real testing - well as near as i can get it in a 6th form physics lab my ZI only has an error of around +/- 0.4%

 

[Terao]

We seem to have gone way off the original thread into a how high up the wall nikon and lieca can leave damp patches. So to bring it back..... for me the reason to go for a ZI over a bassa (I have both well actually one and a few of the others) is that if you can afford the zi and it not affect the glass you can also afford or are going to use then the zi has to be the choice just because of the RF both EBL and luminosity ...

Unless of course you tend to shoot wide angle stuff, in which case a Bessa R4* would make better sense, particularly as the money you "save" by buying the Bessa would finance the Biogon 25 or 21. The R4M is certainly up to accurately focusing the 35mm f/2, the 50mm Sonnar may tax it a little though...

 

[lshofstra]

Just noticed this thread. I own and use a ZI and a Bessa R3a, but can't make up my mind which I like best... As feel goes, I seem to be the exception, as I prefer the Bessa. Next time I feel rich I may get a half case to improve the ZI in this respect. The ZI does not focus more accurately in spite of it's longer EBL (tested them). It's transport is indeed very smooth. It is quieter. I do in fact very much like the rewind on the bottom (Tom, don't look at it to confirm the film is being transported - just slightly shift your lower fingers and feel for it). Perhaps I like it because I'm lefthanded, you automatically wind it the right way with that hand. But all in all, I don't feel it really has an edge on the R3a. So to anyone starting out I'd say go for the Bessa..