jbrough
Member
I am looking at a couple of wide angle lenses for my M6 and have decided it should be either the Leica Elmarit 21/2.8 ASPH, the older non-aspherical model of the same lens, or the Zeiss Biogon 21/2.8.
Does anyone have any advice? Obviously the Elmarit ASPH is great, but very pricely - does anyone have any experience with the other lenses? Or perhaps some other suggestions? I have heard the Biogon is great too...
Many thanks,
Jonathan.
Does anyone have any advice? Obviously the Elmarit ASPH is great, but very pricely - does anyone have any experience with the other lenses? Or perhaps some other suggestions? I have heard the Biogon is great too...
Many thanks,
Jonathan.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
The Biogon is indeed a fine lens, but I've no experience with the Elmarit to compare.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
I owned the pre-asph 21mm (E60) lens for years before switching to the current asph version some years ago. But if I needed a 21mm lens today I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Leica E60 version again, especially for the price. However, the Biogon is said to rival the current Leica 21mm asph version.
"This Biogon lens is second to none in the current rangefinder field and is a most interesting design in the 21mm class. It delivers at least the same overall performance as the Leica Elmarit-M 21mm, but without the employment of aspherical surfaces and at a lower price. The sturdiness of the mount may be not as good as that of the Leica, but the mechanical accuracy is not affected and I did not detect any decentring." Erwin Puts
The attached pic was taken with the pre-asph 21mm Elmarit M.
"This Biogon lens is second to none in the current rangefinder field and is a most interesting design in the 21mm class. It delivers at least the same overall performance as the Leica Elmarit-M 21mm, but without the employment of aspherical surfaces and at a lower price. The sturdiness of the mount may be not as good as that of the Leica, but the mechanical accuracy is not affected and I did not detect any decentring." Erwin Puts
The attached pic was taken with the pre-asph 21mm Elmarit M.
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spysmart
Established
Over the years, I've owned all three you mention:
The pre-ASPH is easily the poorest of the group - a bit soft , and the build's not that great ( on the lens, the hood back ring stop is attached with superglue ).
The Zeiss has very good sharpness and contrast across the whole frame. Reflections seem slightly better controlled than the 21 ASPH ( both are excellent ). I think it's the better lens.
The Zeiss OVF is a clear notch above the others.
The only reason to pay extra for the Leica ASPH is perhaps for M8 6 bit coding
Have a look at :
http://www.imx.nl/photo/zeiss/biogon-t_2821mm_zm_the_zeis.html
The pre-ASPH is easily the poorest of the group - a bit soft , and the build's not that great ( on the lens, the hood back ring stop is attached with superglue ).
The Zeiss has very good sharpness and contrast across the whole frame. Reflections seem slightly better controlled than the 21 ASPH ( both are excellent ). I think it's the better lens.
The Zeiss OVF is a clear notch above the others.
The only reason to pay extra for the Leica ASPH is perhaps for M8 6 bit coding
Have a look at :
http://www.imx.nl/photo/zeiss/biogon-t_2821mm_zm_the_zeis.html
Graybeard
Longtime IIIf User
Before you make a large expenditure on a 21mm lens, you might want to consider if you are overdoing things. A 21mm lens is VERY WA indeed.
IMHO, a 28mm will be adequate for most WA shooting, especially travel work. Ihave both 21mm and 15mm lens for my M6 and use them far less than the 28mm.
There are many less expensive alternatives to the 28mm Leitz glass. Have a look at the Voigtlander 28's.
IMHO, a 28mm will be adequate for most WA shooting, especially travel work. Ihave both 21mm and 15mm lens for my M6 and use them far less than the 28mm.
There are many less expensive alternatives to the 28mm Leitz glass. Have a look at the Voigtlander 28's.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Don't scoff at the CV Color Skopar. Not very fast, but wonderful.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
This just goes to show how different we all are.
I would say 70% of my shooting is with a 21mm lens (by far my favorite focal length). Since acquiring the M8, the 21 is now cropped to a 28 equiv. - and it feels very tight to me.
When I'm in a "21 mood" there's nothing quite as satisfying, and with some thought and care the results need not scream "wide" either! There's some danger in having wideness itself overwhelm the subject.
I think f/2.8 is useful, though the f/4 and f/4.5 offerings can be great too. When I wanted a fast wide at a reasonable price, a used Biogon was the answer (Contax G, not ZM). Later, in a moment of insanity, I also got a used 21 Elmarit-ASPH, so I've had both for a while. And both are excellent, reasonably flare resistant, with attractive tonality and without noticeable barrel distortion. I haven't tested them against each other, but both perform quite satisfactorily.
You might also consider a 24 or 25mm, as these are still very wide but easier to use, a bit more "mainstream". I think the 24 Elmarit uses the same barrel as the 21 Elmarit; looks the same anyway, and I believe the dimensions are the same. And the 25 Biogon has developed an outstanding reputation for being about the best in the ZM lineup.
I think f/2.8 is useful, though the f/4 and f/4.5 offerings can be great too. When I wanted a fast wide at a reasonable price, a used Biogon was the answer (Contax G, not ZM). Later, in a moment of insanity, I also got a used 21 Elmarit-ASPH, so I've had both for a while. And both are excellent, reasonably flare resistant, with attractive tonality and without noticeable barrel distortion. I haven't tested them against each other, but both perform quite satisfactorily.
You might also consider a 24 or 25mm, as these are still very wide but easier to use, a bit more "mainstream". I think the 24 Elmarit uses the same barrel as the 21 Elmarit; looks the same anyway, and I believe the dimensions are the same. And the 25 Biogon has developed an outstanding reputation for being about the best in the ZM lineup.
jbrough
Member
Thanks Doug - can you mount a Biogon 21 Contax mount easily on an M? Are there adaptors readily available?
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
At one time or another I have had just about every 21 for the Leicas. I have favourites, some sentimental (21f3.4 Super-Angulon) and some for their performance, 21/2,8 Asph, Zeiss Biogon 21mm f4.5 (best of them all!) and Color-Skopar 21mm f4 P version.
The Pre-Asph 21mm 2.8 I found a bit mediocre and lots of problems with hoods and front ring!
I did have the 21/2,8 ASPH and the 21/2.8 ZM Biogon at the same time and sold off the ASPH as I found that the performance quality was the same, without the penalty of size with the Biogon 21/2.8.
If you can live with the slower speed, the 21f4.5 Biogon is the absolute champ! No discernable distorsion, small and compact and SHARP!
If you are getting a 21 for occasional use, consider the Color-Skopar 21mm in P mount (M-mount). Less distorsion than the 21mm f2.8 ASPH! - and it is about 10-15% of the price of the ASPH.
The Pre-Asph 21mm 2.8 I found a bit mediocre and lots of problems with hoods and front ring!
I did have the 21/2,8 ASPH and the 21/2.8 ZM Biogon at the same time and sold off the ASPH as I found that the performance quality was the same, without the penalty of size with the Biogon 21/2.8.
If you can live with the slower speed, the 21f4.5 Biogon is the absolute champ! No discernable distorsion, small and compact and SHARP!
If you are getting a 21 for occasional use, consider the Color-Skopar 21mm in P mount (M-mount). Less distorsion than the 21mm f2.8 ASPH! - and it is about 10-15% of the price of the ASPH.
Hi- No adapter for the autofocus Contax-G 21mm Biogon, though it might be converted to M mount by artisans in Japan at more expense than the cost of a new 21 Biogon-ZM. So, not much point. There may well be a suitable adapter for the older Contax RF f/4.5 Biogon.
Currently, Zeiss is offering two 21mm lenses in M mount ("ZM"), an f/2.8 and the fine f/4.5 that Tom referred to. Both of these have a smaller filter size than the 21 Elmarit ASPH, an advantage, but the f/2.8 ZM sticks out a bit further I think.
RichardB
Well-known
I expect not only good optical performance from my lenses but also the ability to withstand heavy long term usage. That is why I purchase the latest Leica lenses and have the 21mm ASPH. I could care less about optical tests. -Dick
Never Satisfied
Well-known
I have the pre ASPH Elmarit and only use it occasionally, as previously mentioned, 21mm is really wide on film. I've had no quality issues with the lens and the images it produces well and trully exceed that of the CV 21mm, that I sold and have never missed. If I had the cash to buy new, it would be the Zeiss f2.8 and the Zeiss finder. Andrew.
Turtle
Veteran
There are no indications that Zeiss lenses are any less robust in real world use and many CV lenses seem to stand up very well.
I don't buy into this idea that Leica build is light years ahead of everyone elses. Leica repair and service prices are high and not much less than new lenses from CV....and sometimes more. What would you consider heavy usage to be? I find it hard to imagine that you would not be able to have your zeiss or other lenses periodically serviced to keep up. If you did it routinely every year you'd still save a fortune over Leica. Leica build is generally superb (they have their faults too) but I cannot detect much difference with my ZM lenses. I guess time will tell, but right now I have many $thousands in my bank while I find out
I hear plenty about people having to send in their leica kit for repair recalibration.....and it is not cheap.My CV 21 f4 is great, but not as crisp over the entire field as my ZMs. Good though. I can imagine that based on comparisons users make, the ZM 21s will ne noticeably sharper in the corners. Whether it is enough to care about is another matter. I love the CV 21-P Tiny, sharp and super handling. Also cheap comparatively...
jackal2513
richbroadbent
24mm elmarit-m
has no peers
period
has no peers
period
Turtle
Veteran
So expensive, however....
For a regular wide I would look no further than a good 28mm, followed by a 21. If you want to travel light, you could get a 21 CV and 28 CV Skopar for about $800 (1/4 the price of a 24 asph) and both with 39mm threads or a 21 & 28 biogon for about 1700, or half one Leica asph...both using 46mm threads. V happy with my 28 biogon.
The 24 asph is 55mm I think so yet more filters too. Thats more a nuissance issue than cost, but if you buy good filters another few hundred $ too! still, I would not turn one down!
R2-D2
Established
Is yours still for sale?
stevencrichton
Established
21mm f4 voigtlander. just breathe out be steady and then spend the rest of the money on film and printing... much more enjoyable.
jbrough
Member
Good call Steve - I think I might order a CV 21/4P and give it a whirl. And thanks to everyone for their valuable advice.
Cheers,
Jonathan.
stevencrichton
Established
No Problem
No Problem
Nice to know to be of help and the only one who suggests to work on the final outcome of the picture over MTU etc
No Problem
Nice to know to be of help and the only one who suggests to work on the final outcome of the picture over MTU etc