Will The Real Pre-ASPH Lenses Please "Stand Up" ?

dcsang

dcsang

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It was always my understanding, in terms of Leica-lore, that the term "pre-Aspherical" or "pre-ASPH" (depending on which lens you're talking about) referred to the version of a particular lens just prior to Leica converting to Aspherical elements.

So, for example, the "Pre-ASPH" 50mm Summilux was the "Type 3" version of this lens made between 1992 and 2004.
Similarly the "Pre-ASPH" 35mm Summilux was the version made between 1960 and 1995.

Lately I've been seeing a lot of sale listings (not necessarily here at RFF) with folks listing their lenses as "pre-ASPH"; and while, optically speaking, that is true, I noted that the lenses, specifically the 50mm summilux Type 2 and Type 1 but also summicrons in the 35mm realm (all types leading up to aspherical), were listed as such. I was always under the impression that the meaning of the "pre-ASPH" moniker was in reference to the lens version just prior to the switch to aspherical elements.

Can you folks clarify this for me? Maybe I've been wrong the whole time but would just like some clarification :)

Thank you,
Dave
 
There are only 2 types of 50 Summilux before the ASPH. A mechanical change of smaller min. focus doesn't count :)

To answer your question, I prefer to look at the lens/serial nr. anyways .... versioning, etc., is not consistent, depending who you ask.
 
Pre-ASPH means the optical formula just before the ASPH. While the lens barrel design may change if the optical formula is the same, it is also pre-ASPH.

For example the 50mm Summilux V1 changed forumla in V2, so V2, V3 and V4 are all pre-ASPH designs. While the V4 had a change in focus distance from 1M to 0.7M, both IMHO are still regarded as pre-ASPH lens designs.

Many will advertise as pre-ASPH even when they are not because it will help with people searching for lenses to buy. The sale will show even when people are looking for ASPH lenses.

I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.
 
leicashot said:
Pre-ASPH means the optical formula just before the ASPH. While the lens barrel design may change if the optical formula is the same, it is also pre-ASPH.

For example the 50mm Summilux V1 changed forumla in V2, so V2, V3 and V4 are all pre-ASPH designs. While the V4 had a change in focus distance from 1M to 0.7M, both IMHO are still regarded as pre-ASPH lens designs.
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See, Dave ? 50 Lux had only 3 optical formulas, V1, V2, and ASPH.

"pre-asph" is in the eye of the beholder. :)
 
It does confuse one though when looking at lenses. I know my 35 and 50 are both "pre-ASPH" but they're both the versions just before the ASPH lenses so I would assume to call them "pre-ASPH" - maybe I should just stick to versions.. but Roland.. you're right.. how do you 'version' the 50 'lux ? By optical formula or by barrel design ?

Cheers,
Dave
 
dcsang said:
It does confuse one though when looking at lenses. I know my 35 and 50 are both "pre-ASPH" but they're both the versions just before the ASPH lenses so I would assume to call them "pre-ASPH" - maybe I should just stick to versions.. but Roland.. you're right.. how do you 'version' the 50 'lux ? By optical formula or by barrel design ?

Cheers,
Dave
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Dave it's always a combination of optical and barrel designs, though when referred to by most in the industry (prior to the digital explosion) us Leica people, at least from the original/first Leica forum - 'photo.net' we all referred to pre-ASPH by the optical forumla prior to ASPH. Post digital there are many uninformed people that don't understand this and have been posting anything prior to ASPH with the pre-ASPH designation. Like I said prior, its also to assist in searching and sales.

Then alongside that we'd describe that it's V1,2,3 etc, especially in terms of the Summilux which not only changed barrel designs, but focus distance, while keeping the exact same optical formula. Most if not all other lenses have changed optical forumlas before the ASPH. i.e the 35mm Cron has 1 optical change just before the ASPH, although it has some slight changes in design and manufacturing location (Canada/Germany). Those details would also be stated but really if the optical design was the one right before pre-ASPH, it is regarded as 'pre-ASPH'.
 
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but Roland.. you're right.. how do you 'version' the 50 'lux ? By optical formula or by barrel design ?

By optical formula, Dave. See the flickr M-mount forum. 50 Summilux had 2, 35 Summicron had 4 optical formulas before becoming aspherical.
 
jsrockit said:
Rockwell to the rescue... ;)

http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/50mm-f14.htm#chrono
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Yes he proves that the serial number, barrel design and focus distance all need to be taken into account. He doesn't state any of them with pre-ASPH, but in general it refers to the optical design first, then the version built 'immediately before' the ASPH version. Lets not even get into lens coatings ;)

'Usually' these are stated but these days don't leave anything to chance. When buying, look at serial, barrel and focus distance and do your research then you can't go wrong.
 
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The whole asph/pre-asph distinction was traditionally invoked when optics was important.

Notice that Summicron V4 for example, had at least one (minor) barrel revision. Few would argue, however, that some of V4s are not being "true pre-asph".

When barrel version is important it is easy enough to mention so, e.g. E43 vs E46 Summilux 50 preasph, or likewise with Noctilux f/1 revisions.
 
On a related topic, "King of Bokeh" seems to be used freely according to whatever 35mm 'cron the seller is trying to pimp on eBay.
 
rogerzilla said:
On a related topic, "King of Bokeh" seems to be used freely according to whatever 35mm 'cron the seller is trying to pimp on eBay.
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Sure, why not? If the seller falls for that nonsense it is their fault. I mean we are talking about an internet legend that is all based on subjective opinion anyway. The bokeh king is just a silly moniker in the first place.
 
jsrockit said:
Sure, why not? If the seller falls for that nonsense it is their fault. I mean we are talking about an internet legend that is all based on subjective opinion anyway. The bokeh king is just a silly moniker in the first place.
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THANK YOU !!!!

You know how many people believe that Bokeh is NOT subjective?

Cheers,
Dave
 
I also think that "pre-ASPH" means the latest version (pre-) just before the ASPH version. Everything older should just have the plain name of as "Summilux" or "Summicron". If people start using version numbers it really gets complicated since there is no "official" definition of the diffeent versions (at least not by Leica).
 
Rockwell's details are good, just missing a couple special versions like the scalloped black paint E46. Here's my version, I used Leica's nomenclature, so it won't be popular with the v1, v2, v3, etc. names commonly used. I'd 2nd Roland's note to use serial numbers, optical diagrams, coating information, filter size, focus throw, finish type info. when buying/selling these.

http://tedmphoto.blogspot.com/2009/06/summilux-5014-overview.html
 
dcsang said:
THANK YOU !!!!

You know how many people believe that Bokeh is NOT subjective?

Cheers,
Dave
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Dave,

You mean bokeh is objective, because it's there in the picture.
How people perceive those that leads to preference or dislike, that's subjective.
 
ahh, yes

ahh, yes

But don't forget that the Hexar AF (lens, I guess...) is the "Summicron Killer" so by definition, it is also a killer of the "King of Bokeh" ;)

jsrockit said:
Sure, why not? If the seller falls for that nonsense it is their fault. I mean we are talking about an internet legend that is all based on subjective opinion anyway. The bokeh king is just a silly moniker in the first place.
Click to expand...
 
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