CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
Everyone is naturally 'hung up' on the price, and how it doesn't seem to relate to the Lux or Noct. Whether it's worth the money or not, though... I will wait to see an actual photograph created with this lens that:
• can't be made with another lens
• demonstrates whatever 'extra' it might resolve is actually necessary in that image
• demonstrates that the more 'clinically close to perfect' a lens is, the better the photograph.
I'm sure we're going to see a glut of sample pictures, that show the super flat field, and lack of vignetting, and a 2% increase in resolving power. And, then we'll be reminded that the people who will buy this lens will use it handheld, on grab shots of labradors and the homeless. Or, that the people who might benefit - landscapists - should probably be shooting a larger format.
I used to admire Leica. Now, i can't decide if they're a joke or if we're supposed to be.
• can't be made with another lens
• demonstrates whatever 'extra' it might resolve is actually necessary in that image
• demonstrates that the more 'clinically close to perfect' a lens is, the better the photograph.
I'm sure we're going to see a glut of sample pictures, that show the super flat field, and lack of vignetting, and a 2% increase in resolving power. And, then we'll be reminded that the people who will buy this lens will use it handheld, on grab shots of labradors and the homeless. Or, that the people who might benefit - landscapists - should probably be shooting a larger format.
I used to admire Leica. Now, i can't decide if they're a joke or if we're supposed to be.
baisao
Established
Araakii
Well-known
This whole world is a joke. And we are all part of it.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think there are a lot worse manufacturers out there than Leica ... at least their products are well engineered and well made ... expensive yes!
When I see todays fashion victims walking around in brand new jeans with rips, tears and looking like they've been washed fifty times, I cringe at the thought that these fools likely paid hundreds of dollars for them from some expensive clothing boutique that got them out of some third world sweat shop for peanuts!
That annoys me far more than a high quality optic selling for $7000.00!
When I see todays fashion victims walking around in brand new jeans with rips, tears and looking like they've been washed fifty times, I cringe at the thought that these fools likely paid hundreds of dollars for them from some expensive clothing boutique that got them out of some third world sweat shop for peanuts!
That annoys me far more than a high quality optic selling for $7000.00!
DominikDUK
Well-known
$ 7000 is a lot of money but comparing the price of the Summicron to the price of a cine lens say an Arri Zeiss Ultra Prime Planar T1.9/50 the Leica is a lot cheaper the Cine lens cost $ 13100,- that's nearl twice the price. Ok the cine lens is a low volume lens, but I guess so is the new Leica APO lens. Is it as good as the Zeiss cine prime I doubt it, is it better than the average Still camera lens very likely. Will I buy it not likely.
I'll second Keith' opinion, but I also believe that Chris has a point some owners of expensive products are asses. Take a Ferrari extremely loud could be made less loud but the owner wants to show what a big engine his car has. I personaly would buy a car with a quiet engine and more comfort but that's me. Some buy expensive products for bragging and some for using it as the best tools possible.
Dominik
I'll second Keith' opinion, but I also believe that Chris has a point some owners of expensive products are asses. Take a Ferrari extremely loud could be made less loud but the owner wants to show what a big engine his car has. I personaly would buy a car with a quiet engine and more comfort but that's me. Some buy expensive products for bragging and some for using it as the best tools possible.
Dominik
fireblade
Vincenzo.
whats the difference between the price of this lens and Nikon 300/400/500/600/ primes ?
just another tool for those that can afford it.
better images for 99% of the world "amateur" photographers ? ... probably not.
just another tool for those that can afford it.
better images for 99% of the world "amateur" photographers ? ... probably not.
btgc
Veteran
BobYIL
Well-known
I think some of the disappointments and frustrations were due to the extent of how far the announced "essentials" were welcomed as essentials. The M9 users will soon figure out that they would be able to do 95% of what could be done with M9M thru PP. They will also find out that the Apo-Summicron will not turn their cameras to a new one to compete against the best FF sensors. This is the digital age; myths do not last in our day as long as the comparison results down to pixel-peeping level are shared thru internet. Real photographers today do not "buy" palliative improvements as innovations.
If they really are into accomplishing something "essential", then should concentrate on how to employ the same sensors used by some top cameras costing less than half of the M9, improve hi-ISO capability at least to the level shared by cameras of $1000-class by still maintaining color, improve the reliability of their cameras, make the bodies weather sealed, not only introduce boutiques but also service stations to stop shipping cameras to Solms for service to take weeks.
If they really are into accomplishing something "essential", then should concentrate on how to employ the same sensors used by some top cameras costing less than half of the M9, improve hi-ISO capability at least to the level shared by cameras of $1000-class by still maintaining color, improve the reliability of their cameras, make the bodies weather sealed, not only introduce boutiques but also service stations to stop shipping cameras to Solms for service to take weeks.
Even if they just managed to do that I would be happy. I had to wait 3 months to have my rangefinder adjusted. *Even* though I am a member of the leica professional programme. Because accidental damage (a knock) nullifies their promise to have 2 work days turn around.
Pathetic really.
Naturally I was very happy that my 5D II, like always, was there to save the day. Which by the way has never needed service.
V.
clayne
shoot film or die
Right, so perhaps the other issue at hand would be a sizable percentage of Leica fans who could care less about Karbe designs and would rather see Mandler based designs because the images had more soul rather than outright blazing sharpness and contrast.
That's probably another reason to avoid the newer designs - more and more heading into Zeiss-land. This new lens is absolutely no exception to that - and further reinstills it.
Also... good for a re-read about the 50/1.4 already being APO: http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2008/09/photokina-2008-day-2-taking-it-easy-and.html
Personally, I'm not interested in any of the ASPH stuff.
Araakii
Well-known
Yep, I can't care less about the new ASPH stuff either. But it's good to have them so those who want them can go get them and unload their pre-ASPH gems to the used market.
Araakii
Well-known
Absolutely! But why should people care right? They don't buy those jeans and they don't know those 3rd world workers, but they surely do want to buy this lens for half price
albygentle
Member
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
I guess "soul" is really just another euphemism for "flaw". At some point, making things better will make them lose "soul".
Ben Z
Veteran
I regard the new Summicron APO as I regard a Bugatti Veyron: something I can definitely appreciate, would love to take for a spin, but have neither the slightest inclination to buy, nor pang of jealousy toward those who do, nor contempt for the manufacturer.
OTOH what I do find somewhat disgusting is the fact Leica has (no matter any apologist rationalizing) arbitrarily doubled the price of the current 50 Summicron (IMO an ironic term for a lens whose optics date to 1979 and mechanicals to 1994) over the past few years. It hasn't hurt me at all, given that the resale value of my 50 Summicron has also doubled what I paid for it, but I feel sorry for all the guys today who are being shut out of the Leica rangefinder experience because Leica has decided (no doubt financially a good decision) to go after a more affluent market. I mean, it used to be an average Joe could sell a bunch of Nikon or Canon gear and get into a small Leica outfit. Today he'd have to sell his car, too.
OTOH what I do find somewhat disgusting is the fact Leica has (no matter any apologist rationalizing) arbitrarily doubled the price of the current 50 Summicron (IMO an ironic term for a lens whose optics date to 1979 and mechanicals to 1994) over the past few years. It hasn't hurt me at all, given that the resale value of my 50 Summicron has also doubled what I paid for it, but I feel sorry for all the guys today who are being shut out of the Leica rangefinder experience because Leica has decided (no doubt financially a good decision) to go after a more affluent market. I mean, it used to be an average Joe could sell a bunch of Nikon or Canon gear and get into a small Leica outfit. Today he'd have to sell his car, too.
horosu
Well-known
That's the long-term problem that Leica has produced for themselves, IMHO.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
I think that was what the Summarit line was created for: to preserve the presence of "entry drugs" in the Leica lineup, while freeing the way to increase prices, of the more iconic Summicrons and Summiluxes.
Leica products seem to be both Veblen goods, as pointed out earlier, and positional goods - that is an increase in price actually increases desirability (and demand) instead of decreasing it, and their value is largely a function of this projected desirability in comparison to substitutes, such as Cosina or Zeiss lenses.
Actually when Leica introduced price increases this past January it served to calm things down a bit...reducing the demand and the spot price. New lenses that were previously selling on the spot market for significantly over retail are now down to retail or slightly above.
Leica does not have the capability of manufacturing these lenses in sufficient volume to meet the world wide demand. Yes, they could probably build the 50/2 APO and sell it for less than $7k and still make a profit every time they sell one, but a lower price would just result in more backorders and longer lead times. No one makes any money collecting backorders.
What would happen if Leica did this? The free market would of course naturally correct the imbalance...people would get in line for the lower retail (say $5k) and then they'd ebay it and make perhaps $2500 profit.
Now when Leica gets their new facility going, perhaps they can increase the throughput so they can start delivering things in a reasonable time frame.
When I worked for a Leica dealer I placed a large order for lenses, including multiple copies of 50/1, 50/1.4, 35/1.4, and all the other high-demand items. In 15 months they delivered exactly one Noctilux...one or two 35 FLEs, and three or four 50 lux.
Leica does not have the capability of manufacturing these lenses in sufficient volume to meet the world wide demand. Yes, they could probably build the 50/2 APO and sell it for less than $7k and still make a profit every time they sell one, but a lower price would just result in more backorders and longer lead times. No one makes any money collecting backorders.
What would happen if Leica did this? The free market would of course naturally correct the imbalance...people would get in line for the lower retail (say $5k) and then they'd ebay it and make perhaps $2500 profit.
Now when Leica gets their new facility going, perhaps they can increase the throughput so they can start delivering things in a reasonable time frame.
When I worked for a Leica dealer I placed a large order for lenses, including multiple copies of 50/1, 50/1.4, 35/1.4, and all the other high-demand items. In 15 months they delivered exactly one Noctilux...one or two 35 FLEs, and three or four 50 lux.
clayne
shoot film or die
It's also another word for "character."
If someone tried to beat all character out of you until you were "perfect" you probably wouldn't like that right? I don't think your friends or loved ones would like a perfect character-less you, either.
Mandler designs worked and they worked very well without losing their feel. This new stuff is fixing all about fixing non-existent problems.