Sonnar2
Well-known
After eight months with my first digital Leica (M240) I suspect there is no future for digital rangefinders. I will definitely not "upgrade" to a M10.
My first RF camera (which I loved) was the small compact plastic Bessa-R. I have tried some, but hadn't find the Leica viewfinders truly superior to them. They are dimmer in most backlite situations. And then the "lifeview" screens are next to worthless. Expectations for perfection has run-up in the last 20 years and will continue. Even smartphones are very good in picture taking. Excellent lenses - except very slow ones or with distortion - need physical size and block viewfinder area.
What I would buy is a "Q2" with exchangable lenses, which I call "QX" (or maybe "QM"):
- full format (35mm equivalent) sensor, about 47 MP
- M lens mount
- electronic finder with focussing help (loupe or split-screen microprism ring)
- speed dial with locked "AE" and "Sport-AE" with higher speeds
- ISO dial
- programmable lens profiles: distortion, vignetting, exif-tags, redetection of lens setups
- simple menue structure (remember last position)
- make it straight and simple: leave away the rangefinder
- leave away the display as well (instead: bluetooth connection to smartphone/iphone)
- electronic anti-theft protection (suppressible) and inbuild GPS sensor
- size and weight: Small and lightweigt, of a Leica III/ Bessa-R2 camera. Back to "Barnack" style..!
- of course, this is a "outdoor use" camera (weather sealing will be welcome). The SL-2 "studio line" is a separate world.
If Leica don't make it, Fuji will. Or Nikon. Or even Sony...
What do you think?
Cheers,
My first RF camera (which I loved) was the small compact plastic Bessa-R. I have tried some, but hadn't find the Leica viewfinders truly superior to them. They are dimmer in most backlite situations. And then the "lifeview" screens are next to worthless. Expectations for perfection has run-up in the last 20 years and will continue. Even smartphones are very good in picture taking. Excellent lenses - except very slow ones or with distortion - need physical size and block viewfinder area.
What I would buy is a "Q2" with exchangable lenses, which I call "QX" (or maybe "QM"):
- full format (35mm equivalent) sensor, about 47 MP
- M lens mount
- electronic finder with focussing help (loupe or split-screen microprism ring)
- speed dial with locked "AE" and "Sport-AE" with higher speeds
- ISO dial
- programmable lens profiles: distortion, vignetting, exif-tags, redetection of lens setups
- simple menue structure (remember last position)
- make it straight and simple: leave away the rangefinder
- leave away the display as well (instead: bluetooth connection to smartphone/iphone)
- electronic anti-theft protection (suppressible) and inbuild GPS sensor
- size and weight: Small and lightweigt, of a Leica III/ Bessa-R2 camera. Back to "Barnack" style..!
- of course, this is a "outdoor use" camera (weather sealing will be welcome). The SL-2 "studio line" is a separate world.
If Leica don't make it, Fuji will. Or Nikon. Or even Sony...
What do you think?
Cheers,
sepiareverb
genius and moron
All I want is the capability to shoot native squares on the Q2
I think the Leica CL was their first attempt. Eventually we might see a FF version.
Sonnar2
Well-known
yes, sensor could be squarish as well, at least nearly. There is no physical reason for a native 2:3-format. In fact there was a reason (movie film format) which is long gone. What is simply needed is a format switch.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Bob,
On my SL2 I can crop to the square (VF'er and rear display show the square for framing). Effectively it crops the 47.3 MP sensor to 31.5 MP.
Really great with my APO 35 Cron which makes a good normal lens for the square. My gal is a celeb, digital influencer, and fashion blogger. She has 724K followers, so shooting the square for Instagram is mucho important.
Know that after importing into Lightroom that the images will be shown in the square, but if I hit the reset button I get the FF 47.3 MP raw file.
I don't see why Leica could not replicate this on the Q2. EZ-PZ.
Cal
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
My dream/wish is for Leica to make a SL2 Monochrom. Also no need to limit the sensor to 41 MP like on the M10M: The Maestro 3 processor is mighty speedy and can handle the data.
Know it is said in the Red Dot Forums that the native L-glass is not only the most highly corrected glass that Leica makes, but also that it is future proofed out 3-4 generations and that this likely translates good for a 100 MP to 120 MP sensor.
In my case I forgive Leica for making big and heavy lenses.
Also who else makes APO wides?
I suspect that a Monochrom SL2 even with a 47.3 MP sensor would have the eqiv resolution of say perhaps a 60-75 MP sensor.
Currently I own a SL2 (about 2 weeks and a day old), an APO 35 Cron for my wide, and a 50 Lux-SL for my normal/portrait lens.
Other mirrorless cameras from Nikon, Sony and Panasonic seem to make three versions of a camera to meet the needs of either: a journalist/event shooter for speed; a landscape shooter where the emphisis is on resolution and IQ; and lastly a version more specialized for video.
Pretty amazing how on the SL2 how it easily covers all three versions mentioned above using "Lateral Thinking" (coined by Jono Slack) via its elegant interface. Also know that it also features a CINE mode if you want to take it to that level.
Know that I also own a CL, so if you understand how simple and elegant that interface is, the SL2 is a big step more forward.
I think the M10M had its sensor limited to 41 MP due to the slower Maestro 2 processor. This is the same processor used on my now 5 year old SL. The Maestro 3 kinda crushes the old Maestro 2 processor. Pretty much the Maestro 2 processor trickled down from the Leica "S" to the SL and now currently to the M10.
I imagine that for a guy like me who already has the Leica native L-glass it would be a great thing as these lenses are not inexpensive, but know that somehow I paid pre-Trump tariff prices and saved $1.2K on these two lenses mentioned above.
How hard would it be for Leica to make a SL2 Monochrom? Perhaps even call it the "Calzone" model. LOL.
Boy this would be a repeat of history. About 8 years ago Leica created the M Monochrom. I remember when it was just a rumor that one poster here on RFF said, "It was the dumbest thing Leica could do." LOL.
Back then I was an analog B&W film die hard, but Leica built my dream camera. I still own it BTW.
Cal
Know it is said in the Red Dot Forums that the native L-glass is not only the most highly corrected glass that Leica makes, but also that it is future proofed out 3-4 generations and that this likely translates good for a 100 MP to 120 MP sensor.
In my case I forgive Leica for making big and heavy lenses.
Also who else makes APO wides?
I suspect that a Monochrom SL2 even with a 47.3 MP sensor would have the eqiv resolution of say perhaps a 60-75 MP sensor.
Currently I own a SL2 (about 2 weeks and a day old), an APO 35 Cron for my wide, and a 50 Lux-SL for my normal/portrait lens.
Other mirrorless cameras from Nikon, Sony and Panasonic seem to make three versions of a camera to meet the needs of either: a journalist/event shooter for speed; a landscape shooter where the emphisis is on resolution and IQ; and lastly a version more specialized for video.
Pretty amazing how on the SL2 how it easily covers all three versions mentioned above using "Lateral Thinking" (coined by Jono Slack) via its elegant interface. Also know that it also features a CINE mode if you want to take it to that level.
Know that I also own a CL, so if you understand how simple and elegant that interface is, the SL2 is a big step more forward.
I think the M10M had its sensor limited to 41 MP due to the slower Maestro 2 processor. This is the same processor used on my now 5 year old SL. The Maestro 3 kinda crushes the old Maestro 2 processor. Pretty much the Maestro 2 processor trickled down from the Leica "S" to the SL and now currently to the M10.
I imagine that for a guy like me who already has the Leica native L-glass it would be a great thing as these lenses are not inexpensive, but know that somehow I paid pre-Trump tariff prices and saved $1.2K on these two lenses mentioned above.
How hard would it be for Leica to make a SL2 Monochrom? Perhaps even call it the "Calzone" model. LOL.
Boy this would be a repeat of history. About 8 years ago Leica created the M Monochrom. I remember when it was just a rumor that one poster here on RFF said, "It was the dumbest thing Leica could do." LOL.
Back then I was an analog B&W film die hard, but Leica built my dream camera. I still own it BTW.
Cal
Henry
Well-known
I would like to see the M camera lineup break in half. I want two lines of Ms, one that is all optical and basically the classic version we have today in the M10-p, and then a second line that features only and EVF but is otherwise unchanged. Higher pixel counts are neat but don't help me much (every device I use regularly is 24mp, and I don't feel limited).
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
I will never buy a digital Leica, but I hope Leica will continue to build the MP & MA.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
The current CL does pretty well on that list (markings as above in bold and red). Don't need FF or 50 MPixel out of it, 24 is enough on the APS-C format; the weather sealing would be nice; the ISO and other settings are already very simple and convenient. Don't know what that "speed dial" thing you're looking for is.
I'd like it to have a port for a wired remote in the CL2 model, if/when it appears. Otherwise, I'm very satisfied with the CL as it is today: it's a near perfect general purpose camera. I want a 'larger than FF' format digital camera for some other things that go beyond what can be done with APS-C or FF format.
G
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Henry,
Do a search on Leica Rumors under M-EVF. It does seem like the M-EVF will be coming. When??? I would expect the camera to be like the SL2, but smaller and really optimized for M-glass. Perhaps not as many MP on the sensor, likely not to have IBIS, and likely not to have the Maestro 3 processor.
My SL has a remarkable VF'er and rear display, but the SL2 VF'er and rear display crush my old SL.
Literally the rear display on the SL2 is only marginally bigger, perhaps about 1/16 of an inch, but the amount of pixels is double. The resolution and added pixel count become really evident when I zoom in.
Know that in my studio I use a 27 inch EIZO calibrated monitor. In a way having the high pixel count on the rear display is like having an EIZO mounted on the back of my camera.
I have no doubt that the EVF on my SL2 exceeds the performance of an optical VF'er. For focusing MF lenses I toggle a zoom in function. Not only is this zoom in movable, but it is deadly accurate. Pretty much I use my SL2 like a rangefinder, but the advantage is that my focus area is movable.
On the SL2 the zoomed in focus area does not reset to center; on my SL it does. I prefer the way the SL2 works because it makes it easier to bracket the focus and eliminates reframing. You can never tll when a model blinks an eye, or something happens in the background that adds to the picture. Not having to reframe makes for a faster shooter.
Also know that the M-EVF is a camera I'm interested in also, but I would like a Monochrom version.
Cal
Sonnar2
Well-known
Yes, you may be right. The "new" CL is very sexy (why the hell they used this name again?). Except for sensor size. Alas, I'm already in APS-C (Fuji) cameras and lenses, and can adopt/crop my M-lenses here. Since I use my Fujis most of all cameras, I knew that the speed dial (manual speeds) is the least important dial at all. It's classic and nice, but can be left away in favor of a "programm AE" dial, which would see far more usage (like the XA? lines have).
My bad suspect is, Leica could already make a full-format version of the nice CL, but refuse to do so, to keep sales of the M-camera. If this is true, Nikon will happily take-over business.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Godfrey,
My fashion blogger/digital influencer gal stole my CL.
Well actually I bought it kinda knowing it would be a great camera for her.
The CL is a great camera. Love the simple interface, the size, and it being a fast shooter. The layout and ergonomics should of won an award. Not much to improve upon.
My friend John uses the phrase "Digital Barnack" to describe the CL. My gal likes it with the added Leica grip because otherwise she says it is too small and too light. She also loves the finger loop.
BTW Leica Camera AG follows her.
Cal
Ccoppola82
Well-known
I think the biggest factor in leica cameras is cost. If they could figure out a way to drop the price to a reasonable level I would buy new. I cannot see the justification paying 3x the cost of a current, higher spec offering from a competitor. That’s why I bought mine used, though still expensive. Ya I get it, rangefinder experience blah blah, but truly the base m10 is $8300...
Tbh if I didn’t have glass for my film M’s there’s NO WAY I would buy or consider digital leica. Would likely stick to fuji.
Tbh if I didn’t have glass for my film M’s there’s NO WAY I would buy or consider digital leica. Would likely stick to fuji.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Too expensive..and too limited for my needs..
I need a few of the same bodies at any 1 time..and that means other brands.
Un-cripple the 30 min video length for concerts/workshops/meetings..
Bring em up to spec..
But as is..if I ever buy..it would be for personal use only..and that means 1 cam only..
But even that..is not gonna happen..because if it craps out..then what..lol..
Another 8+K..down the drain pipe..
I need a few of the same bodies at any 1 time..and that means other brands.
Un-cripple the 30 min video length for concerts/workshops/meetings..
Bring em up to spec..
But as is..if I ever buy..it would be for personal use only..and that means 1 cam only..
But even that..is not gonna happen..because if it craps out..then what..lol..
Another 8+K..down the drain pipe..
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Yes, you may be right. The "new" CL is very sexy (why the hell they used this name again?). Except for sensor size. Alas, I'm already in APS-C (Fuji) cameras and lenses, and can adopt/crop my M-lenses here. Since I use my Fujis most of all cameras, I knew that the speed dial (manual speeds) is the least important dial at all. It's classic and nice, but can be left away in favor of a "programm AE" dial, which would see far more usage (like the XA? lines have).
My bad suspect is, Leica could already make a full-format version of the nice CL, but refuse to do so, to keep sales of the M-camera. If this is true, Nikon will happily take-over business.
Sonnar,
The M-EVF is kinda like a hybrid cross between a CL and a digital M. I can see how some of the layout and features developed on my SL2 could be part of the M-EVF.
The big jump I could imagine would be if the M-EVF is implemented with the Maestro 3 processor that is in the current SL2. If this is the case then it would be a game changer that would be a really good reason to not use a rangefinder.
Another way to frame the M-EVF is imagine a SL2 but the size of an M and optimized for M-glass.
Go to a Leica Store and take a look at the rear display and the EVF on a SL2. Use a MF lens with an adapter and see how the zoom in works and functions. I can see me having to buy a M-EVF just to exploit M-glass and for it size and mobility.
The small battery used on digital M's might be the only handicap. Oh-well I would have to be mindful of power consumption or carry a spare battery. Like I said, "Oh-well."
I would also add that if Leica were smart they would follow the 20/80 rule of design. An example of this is the SONY Walkman. Critics said that the Walkman was a lame idea because the device did only one thing: played either a cassette tape or a CD. Obviously the critics were wrong.
So I say make the M-EVF as "Barnack" like as possible. I would even go as far as eliminate video, and simplyfy the controls further and perhaps to the point where it is like a CL without a touch screen funcion for even more simplicity. Pretty much make it a still camera only.
Less is more. Video consumes a lot of power, so don't go there. KISS: Keep It Simple. No frills. Sometimes moving backwards is moving forwards.
Make a color version, and then a Monochom version, sell mucho cameras.
From a marketing standpoint it might make economic sense. Sell mucho modern M-glass, especially since I suspect the price point could be lower than a rangefinder, and double especially since it is kind of a no frills dedicated still camera.
Cal
Sonnar2
Well-known
Of course, money is an issue. In particular value loss of camera bodies. And marginal utility vs. extra cost for this "edge". A M10 is double the price of a M240 or a Nikon Z7? My used M240 was twice the price of my SONY A7ii. But it isn't twice better. The camera I sketched ("QX" or maybe "CL-2"/large sensor) would be another kind. I used my Bessa-R camera for 10 years. Excellent lenses you can buy one per year at max. It's a long-term issue. I would love to sell all my Sony, Fuji stuff for it. But the camera need to be as compact as my Fuji XE-3...
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Yes, you may be right. The "new" CL is very sexy (why the hell they used this name again?). Except for sensor size. Alas, I'm already in APS-C (Fuji) cameras and lenses, and can adopt/crop my M-lenses here. Since I use my Fujis most of all cameras, I knew that the speed dial (manual speeds) is the least important dial at all. It's classic and nice, but can be left away in favor of a "programm AE" dial, which would see far more usage (like the XA? lines have).
My bad suspect is, Leica could already make a full-format version of the nice CL, but refuse to do so, to keep sales of the M-camera. If this is true, Nikon will happily take-over business.
I suspect that, at the moment, Leica feels the FF version of the CL is the up-market SL line. The SL/SL2 bodies have "all the other stuff" that I could wish for, and with the addition of the Leica M Adapter L and R Adapter M (or R Adapter L) make them operate as natively as is possible with manual focus/non-electronic interface lenses. The additional size and weight of these bodies isn't a big deal to me vs the M bodies ... the difference (having had both at the same time) isn't as much as it would seem.
I can't say how well the M lenses work on Fuji bodies compared to the CL and SL bodies; I've only had the latter. I'd say that imaging performance with the CL and SL bodies matches the M bodies pretty closely—which is pretty darn fantastic—due to the Leica lens profiles. I have lots of experience adapting M and R lenses to other cameras ... Sony A7, lots of FourThirds and mFourThirds, Pentax, Nikon, etc ... and none of them achieve the kind of performance I see with the Leica bodies. I've shied away from the Fuji bodies because my experience with them has not been great (due to the quirkiness of the XTrans sensor, and the usual quibbles about ergonomics and menu layout).
I'm pretty darn happy with my kit of CL + M lenses + R lenses. Beyond this kit, I need to go larger sensor (Hasselblad 907x Special Edition on order) for any realistic improvement.
I alway see price and cost being nominated as a stumbling block. Yes, it costs a bit to get in the game. But in my experience, if what you buy into really works for you, the price is worth it and becomes less important a consideration as the years go on ... because if the equipment you buy really works for you, you are less likely to "need" anything more. My Olympus E-1 has worked for me beautifully since I bought that 2003 camera in 2008, and I still have it, still make photographs with it, and it *still* works for me. I've had the CL kit now since I sold the SL about three years ago, and aside from the upsized Hasselblad dream, I've had very very little desire to part with it or buy anything else. I know the Hasselblad is never going to get the kind of use that the CL does, but that's not why I'm buying it. I don't see that satisfaction with the Leica kit changing anytime soon ... it is so darn competent that as long as it keeps working, I really don't need anything else other than to assuage gear lust.
I try to avoid that and do photography more of the time.
G
raid
Dad Photographer
I may be waiting for this specific type of camera to get out, Cal. On the other hand, I want to enjoy life and I want to have fun with a new camera now.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
OP wants EVF instead of RF. How new is this...
But EVF will still not take better pictures comparing to the camera in the phone.
Addressing some misleading information in OP:
Bessa R was awesome 250 CAD with J8 included camera then I purchased it in mint, used condition. Still worth of 250 CAD for sure. But not more.
Within couple of years it became ugly worn out, even shutter blades were showing worn out spots. My M-E has same shutter, took much more pictures and shutter is fine. Any M exterior is much more durable comparing to any R.
And Bessa R while plastic is not small and compact. Just same size with M. If not slightly taller.
Blind out RF patch of R in sidelight is worse than M VF in backlight. And R short RF base is not comparable with confidence of M long RF base.
Q2 is good as it is. Except price.
I wish Leica keeps not just high prices on M. M-E typ 240 wasn't this bad at 3.995 USD. Make it without current huge screen (good for scratches, cracks only), remove as much as possible buttons and use old A7S 12MP sensor to keep price at 3K$ or less.
But EVF will still not take better pictures comparing to the camera in the phone.
Addressing some misleading information in OP:
Bessa R was awesome 250 CAD with J8 included camera then I purchased it in mint, used condition. Still worth of 250 CAD for sure. But not more.
Within couple of years it became ugly worn out, even shutter blades were showing worn out spots. My M-E has same shutter, took much more pictures and shutter is fine. Any M exterior is much more durable comparing to any R.
And Bessa R while plastic is not small and compact. Just same size with M. If not slightly taller.
Blind out RF patch of R in sidelight is worse than M VF in backlight. And R short RF base is not comparable with confidence of M long RF base.
Q2 is good as it is. Except price.
I wish Leica keeps not just high prices on M. M-E typ 240 wasn't this bad at 3.995 USD. Make it without current huge screen (good for scratches, cracks only), remove as much as possible buttons and use old A7S 12MP sensor to keep price at 3K$ or less.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Like it or not...Japan never made the Leica M replacement..
China..on the other hand...
There's gotta be someone over there..that has thought about this..
As in..
For that Summicron replica everyone is waiting for..
I'm sure there will be a RF camera to stick it on soon enough..
Natural progression of events..
China..on the other hand...
There's gotta be someone over there..that has thought about this..
As in..
For that Summicron replica everyone is waiting for..
I'm sure there will be a RF camera to stick it on soon enough..
Natural progression of events..