Roger Hicks
Veteran
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Hold on: how is "better dials and 'feel' " irrational?
Also, what constitutes 'luxury"? The old Omega (an 18th birthday present, costing $28 in the PX) that I wear whenever I wear a watch? Or the Vacheron Constantin 'Dove', for which I would cheerfully pay the asking price if I were a billionaire, or possibly even just a multi-millionaire? This one went for $90,000: http://www.luxuriousmagazine.com/va...t-dove-18k-white-gold-and-diamond-wristwatch/
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Garry,
A bugger to read in bright sun, compared with an M.
Also, to quote a former senior executive from BMW (UK), "No, our 'bikes aren't as well made as they used to be. If we made them the way we used to, no-one could afford them."
Cheers,
R. (still riding a 1978 R100RS)
Ben Z
Veteran
Maybe when it's actually true?
Someone who bought a new M8(.1) in 2008 paid $5495. Now in decent shape he might get around $2K. That's 36.4% residual value after 4 years. Someone who bought a new Canon 5D(.1) in 2008 paid $2200. Now in decent shape he might get around $850. That's 38.6% residual after 4 years.
Jeff S
Well-known
I generally prefer to wait for "second generation" products (not just cameras) when new technologies are introduced and "teething problems" are inevitable.
I bought a new M8.2 for $5600 from a reputable Leica dealer three and a half years ago, and one in great condition sells now for a median price of about $3400 (assuming one can be found; much harder than when I picked up a mint used one in this range last year. At least 3 dealers that regularly stocked 6 or 8 at any given time back then now show zero in inventory). That's 60.7% value after 3.5 years (or 56.7% of original list price).
Not that it matters to me; it's a tool to be used, not an investment. So, regarding the OP's question, I'd buy another M of any kind in 2012, including an M9, if I thought it was the best one for my needs.
Jeff
I bought a new M8.2 for $5600 from a reputable Leica dealer three and a half years ago, and one in great condition sells now for a median price of about $3400 (assuming one can be found; much harder than when I picked up a mint used one in this range last year. At least 3 dealers that regularly stocked 6 or 8 at any given time back then now show zero in inventory). That's 60.7% value after 3.5 years (or 56.7% of original list price).
Not that it matters to me; it's a tool to be used, not an investment. So, regarding the OP's question, I'd buy another M of any kind in 2012, including an M9, if I thought it was the best one for my needs.
Jeff
Richard G
Veteran
One of the deciding factors in me buying an M9 - in 2012 - is not so much my Leica lenses, including a 35 and 50 Summicron, but more importantly my Zeiss lenses. I could not think of retiring my 50 C Sonnar to move to another digital system, and even with the colour fringing problems, I could not accept anything less distorting than the 21 C Biogon either. The profiles I've set on the M9 are all devoted to my four Zeiss lenses.
SuperUJ
Well-known
- Paying more for less with better interface -- Think ... Apple -- now the most valuable U.S. company ever.
- People begin to rationalize their purchases -- Think ... Louis Vuitton ... I read it somewhere that LV's sales in Japan had never dropped below 50% of its global sales in spite of the very sluggish economy in the last 15-20 years in that part of the world.
When I think of Leica, I think of what does it stand for; how its cameras are designed with photographers in mind; the pursuit of perfection; the achievements of what some previously believed impossible or not viable; the personal touch on post sale service; the simplicity (the lack of features); and I can go on for a bit. But, that's just me and my shooting style in certain situations. I don't consider Leica as a luxury goods, it's a tool.
With the fear that M10 may use CMOS sensors, I might just go ahead and buy another M9-P as I like it so much. If I have the need for a B/W only body, I will go buy a MM for the application.
I think we can all agree that it is all subjective.
gdi
Veteran
But if you bought that M8 in 2007 for $4500 the residual is much higher; and the residual for the 5D would be much lower if you bought it earlier at the higher $3000+ price. About 44% vs 28%, so my cherry picked numbers make the M8 look like a great value versus your numbers.
Ben Z
Veteran
But my numbers adjust for the fact the 5D sold at a premium above MSRP at first when it was first announced and in short supply. Street prices settled to normal as supply caught up with demand, and as the camera progressed toward the inevitable end of it's product life. With the M8 OTOH, regardless that supply had caught demand and sales were slowing, Leica arbitrarily chose to jack the price up several times, and as of 6 months prior to the M9 going on sale (when it absolutely had to have been already finalized if not in the beginning stages of production), were still fibbing to us that a full-frame was impossible until current technology advanced. That fib is what convinced me to upgrade my M8 to the tune of $1700, of which I got back maybe $500 on resale above what a non-upgraded body would have fetched.
jtm6
Well-known
Many would say they aren't under-featured; the others are the result of unnecessary creeping featurism.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Fascinating. Thanks. In the early 80s (or perhaps late 70s) I was involved with ICL's (International Computer Ltd.) Virtual Machine Environments, optimized for different applications, from VME/A (or maybe B) to VME/K -- only two of which, as far as I recall, survived the Darwinian selection of the marketplace.
Cheers,
R.
ajramirez
Established
Well, I did buy a new M9P in April 2012, but only when it became reasonably evident that the announcement on May 10th was going to be a monochrome only camera. I do not regret my purchase for a second. However, if I had to make that decision now, I would wait the additional four weeks until Photokina just to see what, if anything, will be announced.
I bought the M9P precisely because it is "under-featured." All I wanted was a camera with a shutter speed dial, lenses with aperture rings, convenient and effective manual focus, and the best possible IQ at reasonable ISOs. I wanted the digital version of my M6.
Regards,
Antonio
I bought the M9P precisely because it is "under-featured." All I wanted was a camera with a shutter speed dial, lenses with aperture rings, convenient and effective manual focus, and the best possible IQ at reasonable ISOs. I wanted the digital version of my M6.
Regards,
Antonio
icebear
Veteran
I got my M9 in April. I wouldn't want to have it any other way. It's not perfect but for a Leica M user going digital, it is good enough 
.
I do NOT want:
- to read a 300+ page instruction manual to get the basic settings before going to take the first picture.
- to be confused with countless sub menus and options
- a camera overloaded with nice to have features, that 95% of users might never use, that are loaded in there to bulk up the feature count - you have to pay for this stuff and it makes the use more complicated.
.I do NOT want:
- to read a 300+ page instruction manual to get the basic settings before going to take the first picture.
- to be confused with countless sub menus and options
- a camera overloaded with nice to have features, that 95% of users might never use, that are loaded in there to bulk up the feature count - you have to pay for this stuff and it makes the use more complicated.
seakayaker1
Well-known
Yes, I would buy a M9, M9P Chrome, or a M9M without any hesitation.
. . . . . the only thing that stops me is not having the money. I could sell off some stuff but do not want to do that right now.
I have enough, more then enough, I often want just one more . . . . .
. . . . . the only thing that stops me is not having the money. I could sell off some stuff but do not want to do that right now.
I have enough, more then enough, I often want just one more . . . . .
gdi
Veteran
I don't see how your numbers adjust for anything; you just chose numbers and points in time that make the 5D residual value look most favorable when compared to the M8. The 5d list price was about $3300 when introduced (it makes no sense to try to compare sales at a "premuim" over retail), and since then the price dropped.
The M8 list price did increase. If your point is that Leica takes advantage of their small user base and somewhat unique market position to raise prices on old products, it is well taken - just look at thre absurd price increases on lenses in the last few years (and no, this can not be fully accounted for by FX fluctuations, for those about to say so!).
I can see being upset if you upgraded an old camera; I never saw that as a reasonable value proposition (like paying more for an M9p than an M9), so I was never tempted. Just be glad you didn't buy an M8 based on the explicit promise to make it perpetually upgradable - especially now that Leica indicates (according to reports) that a failed LCD is not repairable!
fivepointsix
Newbie
The very same reason I brought the m9-p,brought it 4 months back to run along side the mp,love how I can switch between cameras with no major difference .if it lost 2 grand before Christmas I don't think I'd be that mad,this ones for life(well as long as Leica can still repair the thing if it fails)
sailronin
Established
I did buy a new M9 in 2012. I upgraded from my M8, very happy as I'm not the least bit interested in an EVF version of an M. The M Monochrome was very tempting but was always happy with SilverEfx Pro and the M8 files, M9 files have proved to be just as good (same sensor design, just larger) with SilverEfx. Very happy with the M9.
__hh
Well-known
Never again.
brokencivilian
Established
I personally am going to grab an m8 when the prices drop even further. I know its not full frame but it will get my head around a digital M. Then I can see if upgrading to an m9 or whatever would be a good decision.
IEDEI
Well-known
they won't drop much further IMO. I just bought one last week...and have been stalking them for a few months. The prices are very very stable.
when you look at stuff like the Digilux 2 which is stable in the $600-$800 range...then surely the M8s will never go below $1500 and are likely to stay in the $2-$3k range for a long time...