robert blu
quiet photographer
Another thread about the complexity of functions and menus of many digital cameras on the market brought me to ask myself if all these functions are really necessary for the not specialized photographers.
Old-timer as myself were used to consider only four basic commands in our cameras: iso, aperture. shutter speed and focus. Then it was up to us to make the best use of the tool.
When I look at the pictures here on RFF, on Flickr or even the one my friends show me I rarely see pictures which require "special "settings to be taken.
Therefore my question is: would you buy a simple DSLR or mirrorless?
A camera with interchangeable lens, only one foucs mode (focus and recompose), maybe manual iso selector, no continuous frame shooting, large jpg and raw, LCD swith on or off, no wi-fi connections, no ...
Something similar to an M Leica (but without the expensive rangefinder mechanism) and in a more accessible price range.
Please feel free to comment !
Old-timer as myself were used to consider only four basic commands in our cameras: iso, aperture. shutter speed and focus. Then it was up to us to make the best use of the tool.
When I look at the pictures here on RFF, on Flickr or even the one my friends show me I rarely see pictures which require "special "settings to be taken.
Therefore my question is: would you buy a simple DSLR or mirrorless?
A camera with interchangeable lens, only one foucs mode (focus and recompose), maybe manual iso selector, no continuous frame shooting, large jpg and raw, LCD swith on or off, no wi-fi connections, no ...
Something similar to an M Leica (but without the expensive rangefinder mechanism) and in a more accessible price range.
Please feel free to comment !
css9450
Veteran
There are digital point-and-shoots that meet most of those criteria.
But even on a fancy, fully-featured digital, you could probably achieve the same end by putting it on "P" mode.
But even on a fancy, fully-featured digital, you could probably achieve the same end by putting it on "P" mode.
Ricoh
Well-known
Possibly like yourself Robert I chose Leica, although you are upmarket on my M240 having an M10. So easy to use and I have the most basic of settings in the lean menu system.
I like to be in control, like driving a car with manual transmission and non-intrusive power steering.
Although I was employed in electronics design, I hate the misuse of technology. Unfortunately it’s pervasive, ‘engineering gone mad’.
I like to be in control, like driving a car with manual transmission and non-intrusive power steering.
Although I was employed in electronics design, I hate the misuse of technology. Unfortunately it’s pervasive, ‘engineering gone mad’.
Nitroplait
Well-known
My iPhone is simple and good enough for me for a simple-take-everywhere camera.
When I want convenience and control of the results I choose digital (a mirrorless in my case) and I want it to be a swiss army knife - it should be able to do whatever is needed in the situation, thus it must be complex.
I get absolutely no joy from digital photography so applying the simple analogue paradigm to a digital camera would be lost on me.
I love my analogue film cameras for the process and feel rather than the results, and digital can't give me that regardless of how much it is dumbed down.
When I want convenience and control of the results I choose digital (a mirrorless in my case) and I want it to be a swiss army knife - it should be able to do whatever is needed in the situation, thus it must be complex.
I get absolutely no joy from digital photography so applying the simple analogue paradigm to a digital camera would be lost on me.
I love my analogue film cameras for the process and feel rather than the results, and digital can't give me that regardless of how much it is dumbed down.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
If you want a simple digital camera, this is the only camera I can think of that would fit that bill (and fit it beautifully I might add).
M-D 2017 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
M-D 2017 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
To your list, I would add: White balance for Auto, sunlight, overcast, shady, and tungsten. And I would want the RAW to be for a standard, long available DNG that doesn't require getting the latest computer.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Oh, yeah, film simulation for Velvia, Astia, Kodachrome, Plus-X, Double-X, Tri-X.
robert blu
quiet photographer
If you want a simple digital camera, this is the only camera I can think of that would fit that bill (and fit it beautifully I might add).
M-D 2017 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
That is a beauty Vince! And of course it is simple! Not in the budget range for many...unfortunatley !
css9450
Veteran
Needs a manual white balance too.
And rear-curtain flash, front and rear IR remote shutter receivers, dimmable monitor screen, built-in bracketing, virtual horizon, live view with zoom....
And rear-curtain flash, front and rear IR remote shutter receivers, dimmable monitor screen, built-in bracketing, virtual horizon, live view with zoom....
joe bosak
Well-known
I think of my xpro1 in these terms.
karateisland
Established
As I read this thread, it's obvious that everyone has different wants/needs for the "simple" digital camera of their dreams.
So I wonder, isn't the most obvious answer to buy a camera with menu options, use the menu to set it up the way you like, and then forget about the menu and shoot?
That's what I do with my Fuji X cameras. I rarely go into the menu, and when I do need to, I have a special "favorites" menu that displays the 3-4 options that matter to me. Easy to do, and makes the camera hust as simple or complex as I want it to be.
So I wonder, isn't the most obvious answer to buy a camera with menu options, use the menu to set it up the way you like, and then forget about the menu and shoot?
That's what I do with my Fuji X cameras. I rarely go into the menu, and when I do need to, I have a special "favorites" menu that displays the 3-4 options that matter to me. Easy to do, and makes the camera hust as simple or complex as I want it to be.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Here is no special settings. I learned it with simple digital camera a.k.a. Canon Rebel.
It just took me 50k pictures in M mode to understand relation between ISO, shutter speed and aperture. Once this understanding came to me, it was no special settings for sport, portraits, macro, Astro and so on.
Even AF modes are simple.
Simple camera to me is Leica M. I have one digital. If I have to I would get it again.
I also have Canon RP, not too complicated menus.
I still think where is a market for very small, build in lens, FF digital PS cameras.
With next to nothing in menus. But they have to be really small. And FF.
It just took me 50k pictures in M mode to understand relation between ISO, shutter speed and aperture. Once this understanding came to me, it was no special settings for sport, portraits, macro, Astro and so on.
Even AF modes are simple.
Simple camera to me is Leica M. I have one digital. If I have to I would get it again.
I also have Canon RP, not too complicated menus.
I still think where is a market for very small, build in lens, FF digital PS cameras.
With next to nothing in menus. But they have to be really small. And FF.
zuiko85
Veteran
“...and in a more accessible price range.”
Ah, there’s the rub. Ten different RFF members may very well have ten different opinions on what is ‘accessible’.
I suppose one could take a poll and arrive at some sort of consensus in regards to price but even then I fear many would fall outside the norm.
Ah, there’s the rub. Ten different RFF members may very well have ten different opinions on what is ‘accessible’.
I suppose one could take a poll and arrive at some sort of consensus in regards to price but even then I fear many would fall outside the norm.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I've owned one for about thirteen years now: My Olympus E-1. It has a few menus, sure, but you could never look at them other than to set the time and date and just use it on any exposure mode at the default settings provided by the factory and get beautiful JPEGs straight out of it. It has the nicest ergonomics of any DSLR I've had, produces some of the nicest JPEG photographs of anything even cameras made today that are far far more sophisticated.
Olympus E-M1 + ZD 50-200mm + EC-14
ISO 200 @ f/5.6 @ 1/2000 @ 147mm
“The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say”
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say”
I paid about $400 for it in 2007, with a lens. I think you could get one now for less than half that.
G
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
Like previously commented, you get a simple digital camera when moving to manually mode. I do that all the time with my Canon 6d when I want to control exp/aperture. So having both (a complex one and a simple one) on one package is a good thing for me.
Marcelo
Marcelo
JeffS7444
Well-known
The most effective way I know of to reduce the noise level is to change cameras less frequently.
As seen in cameras, I haven't been too keen on attempts at "simplicity" to date as they've tended to strip away things I consider to be valuable functionality, or worse, offload it to one's mobile device.
As seen in cameras, I haven't been too keen on attempts at "simplicity" to date as they've tended to strip away things I consider to be valuable functionality, or worse, offload it to one's mobile device.
froyd
Veteran
It's true that most cameras with complex menus can be set up to work as "simple cameras" by infesting some time at the beginning to configure the machine to one's liking.
However, for my taste, it is also true that most newer cameras are not a pleasure to use in those configurations for lack of good dials and ergonomics.
I only have experience with a Sony RX-100, first gen. Menus are abysmal, but can be configured for manual exposure mode and even manual focus operation. However, once set up for use in that configuration, the user experience is severely lacking. You are essentially forcing the camera to behave in a way it was not it's primary design focus.
Therefore, I think Robert has a point, while many cameras can be configured to operate without much automation, few are a pleasure to use in that configuration. I count the Epson R-d1, many Leica Ms, among those. The Nikon Df and the Fuji X can work OK if one is willing to primarily use them as the AF cameras, which they were designed to be.
It's a small, niche market, but I'd be interested in something like an M-D at more affordable prices, or an updated Rd1.
However, for my taste, it is also true that most newer cameras are not a pleasure to use in those configurations for lack of good dials and ergonomics.
I only have experience with a Sony RX-100, first gen. Menus are abysmal, but can be configured for manual exposure mode and even manual focus operation. However, once set up for use in that configuration, the user experience is severely lacking. You are essentially forcing the camera to behave in a way it was not it's primary design focus.
Therefore, I think Robert has a point, while many cameras can be configured to operate without much automation, few are a pleasure to use in that configuration. I count the Epson R-d1, many Leica Ms, among those. The Nikon Df and the Fuji X can work OK if one is willing to primarily use them as the AF cameras, which they were designed to be.
It's a small, niche market, but I'd be interested in something like an M-D at more affordable prices, or an updated Rd1.
Dogman
Veteran
Think back. Back to the first time you ever held an adjustable camera. Not the old Brownie box but an adjustable camera. Remember? All those numbers, levers, dials and things. It was complex, confusing and totally NOT simple to you. It was only after you learned what those numbers meant and what the dials and levers did that it became simple.
People start out dumb as a box of rocks but learn as they go. Today the whole technology culture seems to be hellbent on keeping us dumb by making machines do things for us. The smart phone camera is the Kodak box camera of yesterday. All you gotta do is push the button and a picture is made. So simple and easy a box of rocks could do it.
There you go. A simple digital camera--your iPhone. Is it any wonder it's so popular?
People start out dumb as a box of rocks but learn as they go. Today the whole technology culture seems to be hellbent on keeping us dumb by making machines do things for us. The smart phone camera is the Kodak box camera of yesterday. All you gotta do is push the button and a picture is made. So simple and easy a box of rocks could do it.
There you go. A simple digital camera--your iPhone. Is it any wonder it's so popular?
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Far too simple. And, that eliminates much of the potential for further internet discussion.
You are probably one of those who readily accepts simple solutions when diligent research could lead to more complicated ones.
Of course I would... but the fact that it would sell in small quantities and would have to be developed from scratch so that means there's no way it could be in an accessible price range I'm afraid.