X-Pro 1's Achilles' Heel

[N.delaRua]

Hmm I haven't shot an autofocus camera in a long time, but what EV does ISO 5000 @f/2 and 1/60th come out too? Would other cameras struggle in this limited lighting as well.

I bet I would have a pretty tough time focusing my M in that light with some definite misses... ohh and I would have to shoot 3200 B&W and never get that quality.

 

[bobby_novatron]

"Mirror in the bathroom!" 🙂

Shows my age, doesn't it?

BTW, they're still very nice shots, despite the problems you encountered. Very sharp and nice tonal gradation.

 

[Pablito]

The NEX 5n with EVF, vintage MF lenses and focus peaking turned on is easy to use in situations like that and gives very nice high ISO images.

 

[CopperB]

"Mirror in the bathroom!" 🙂

Shows my age, doesn't it?

BTW, they're still very nice shots, despite the problems you encountered. Very sharp and nice tonal gradation.

LOL tthe entire club was belting out the chorus "mirror in the bathroom". I was as familiar with their songs than most of the crowd. I was heavily into the Police back in the 80s.

 

[CopperB]

Do you recall in which AF mode the demo was set, "Area" or "Multi"? So far, it seems that setting the AF mode to Area in the X-Pro1's Shooting menu + setting the focus mode switch on the front to S (Single AF) is the most like using a RF or "single point" + "single servo" on a Nikon dSLR. With these settings, the X-Pro1's AF appears to work reasonably quickly & accurately (but more like my old Kyocera Contax G2 than an autofocus SLR) in decent to bad light, @ least in my current "test drive" use.

Never thought of that. It was set to multi. I had it set to S although periodically I tried continuous focus. MF is a challenge for me at the best of times. I suffer from EOF (eyes over 50) ;0)

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Not much of an Achilles Heel. . .

Not much of an Achilles Heel. . .

i love fuji, not only the great x100, but way back to the 605 series, and 645 medium format. but this is supposed to be an autofocus camera, and so lack of AF ability, especially after the x100 experience, and even more especially at this extreme price point, is really inexcusable.

Inexcusable? Just watch this: Fuji: I excuse you. There. That wasn't so bad, was it? Honestly, AF failure in a coal mine? Doesn't seem like much of an Achilles Heel to me.

Sorry: [/SnarkOFF] I guess if I was a concert-photographer, I would want to know about this limitation so I could plan around it. But isn't that the same as any other camera, regardless of price point?

BTW, I really like the photos you did make, even within the camera's limitations. I wonder if the answer to this isn't to use a fast RF lens like the C/V 35/1.2 and to avoid the autofocus issue altogether. Wouldn't prefocus work better in this situation anyway due to low light?

 

[Griffin]

Just a thought here, but since most (digital) cameras are infrared sensitive, isn't there some kind of accessory that you can clip on the hotshoe that will work like an infrared flashlight, illuminating the scene without that being visible to humanoid eyes?

 

[jsrockit]

Do you recall in which AF mode the demo was set, "Area" or "Multi"? So far, it seems that setting the AF mode to Area in the X-Pro1's Shooting menu + setting the focus mode switch on the front to S (Single AF) is the most like using a RF or "single point" + "single servo" on a Nikon dSLR. With these settings, the X-Pro1's AF appears to work reasonably quickly & accurately (but more like my old Kyocera Contax G2 than an autofocus SLR) in decent to bad light, @ least in my current "test drive" use.

Yes, this is correct. It's how I use my Fuji and I don't have the issues people talk about.

 

[furcafe]

Aha! In my experience for shooting shows, multi (or "Auto-area" or "Dynamic-area" in Nikon dSLRese) = bad, bad, AF! E.g., even though the D700 has some modest facial-recognition programming, when set to Auto-area, it invariable chooses to focus on microphones instead of singers's faces. That's why I resort to using single-point on the D700, just like I would w/an RF patch or the old split-image circle on a manual focus SLR.

Never thought of that. It was set to multi. I had it set to S although periodically I tried continuous focus. MF is a challenge for me at the best of times. I suffer from EOF (eyes over 50) ;0)

 

[rbelyell]

Inexcusable? Just watch this: Fuji: I excuse you. There. That wasn't so bad, was it? Honestly, AF failure in a coal mine? Doesn't seem like much of an Achilles Heel to me.

Sorry: [/SnarkOFF] I guess if I was a concert-photographer, I would want to know about this limitation so I could plan around it. But isn't that the same as any other camera, regardless of price point?

BTW, I really like the photos you did make, even within the camera's limitations. I wonder if the answer to this isn't to use a fast RF lens like the C/V 35/1.2 and to avoid the autofocus issue altogether. Wouldn't prefocus work better in this situation anyway due to low light?

ben, calm down and read the entire post, where i went on to say i wouldnt trust AF in these conditions. however, there have been many posts taking issue with this cameras AF function, even in decent conditions. you might think that its fine to put out an autofocus camera for $2000 that doesnt properly autofocus, on the heels of putting out another AF camera for $1000 that had problems autofocusing, but i think its inexcusable, and i bet i,m not alone.

 

[furcafe]

Perhaps there just aren't enough people who learned how to use the G1 & G2s properly 😉! IIRC, the root of many complaints about the G1/G2's AF stemmed from the fact that they didn't focus like SLRs. It looks to me like the X100 & X-Pro1 are suffering from the same conceptual disconnect by many users. Bottom line: set it so it uses the central focus area (patch) & use it like an RF!

Yes, this is correct. It's how I use my Fuji and I don't have the issues people talk about.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

I have done so. Calm now. - Ben

 

[jsrockit]

Perhaps there just aren't enough people who learned how to use the G1 & G2s properly 😉! IIRC, the root of many complaints about the G1/G2's AF stemmed from the fact that they didn't focus like SLRs. It looks to me like the X100 & X-Pro1 are suffering from the same conceptual disconnect by many users. Bottom line: set it so it uses the central focus area (patch) & use it like an RF!

Well, you're right I think. I'm used to Leica M cameras and also used the G1. I'm so used to the focus with the middle patch (whether RF patch or AF patch) and recompose that I never understand people's frustrations regarding the AF. However, if I came from a multi-point, continuous AF camera, I guess I'd be having similar issues.

 

[Spyro]

you might think that its fine to put out an autofocus camera for $2000 that doesnt properly autofocus,

doesnt properly autofocus is a bit of an overstatement. It's just not as fast as the fastest, and not as sensitive in low light as the most sensitive, that's all.
It's about the same as a Contax G (from memory, I've sold mine)

Also the lenses are incredibly light, in fact the lightest AF lenses I've ever seen, so this system has the potential to become very fast. Not sure what the bottleneck is, maybe the power supply or the algorithm, we'll see with future firmware updates.

 

[willie_901]

I with the OP's tittle had been help me improve my AF technique.

I with the OP's tittle had been help me improve my AF technique.

Never thought of that. It was set to multi. I had it set to S although periodically I tried continuous focus. MF is a challenge for me at the best of times. I suffer from EOF (eyes over 50) ;0)

Using the APS-C X cameras in this situation with focus mode set to multi instead of area mode is like reporting a flaw in running shoes when you've put them in the wrong feet.

The APS-C X cameras contrast detection AF is not the systems strongest technology. This makes even more important to understand how to get the most out of the system. This requires reading the manual, reading tutorials on-line and practicing.

I would bet a lot of money the OP's keeper rate under identical conditions would be similar to any other camera lens combination once they learn how to use the camera.

When I bought a D200 it was my first camera with an advanced, multi- purpose AF system. The first time I tried to shoot a sports event the results were terrible... nothing was in focus. Then I read a detailed article on Nikonians about how to configure the D200 AF parameters for action photography. After some practice I got my first paid gig shooting sports and was even rehired numerous times.

It's Fuji's fault they did not put a more advanced AF system in the XP1. But it is not their fault someone was frustrated with the AF in difficult circumstances when the operational parameters were not optimized.

 

[furcafe]

Exactly. As I just mentioned to a friend, the artificial intelligence in the X-Pro1/X100's "Multi" autofocus is just plain stupider than that in a dSLR (& the AF AI in even a D700's AF is pretty stupid as I mentioned above), probably because it's got a smaller "brain," so users have to step up & be smarter.

Using the APS-C X cameras in this situation with focus mode set to multi instead of area mode is like reporting a flaw in running shoes when you've put them in the wrong feet.

The APS-C X cameras contrast detection AF is not the systems strongest technology. This makes even more important to understand how to get the most out of the system. This requires reading the manual, reading tutorials on-line and practicing.

I would bet a lot of money the OP's keeper rate under identical conditions would be similar to any other camera lens combination once they learn how to use the camera.

When I bought a D200 it was my first camera with an advanced, multi- purpose AF system. The first time I tried to shoot a sports event the results were terrible... nothing was in focus. Then I read a detailed article on Nikonians about how to configure the D200 AF parameters for action photography. After some practice I got my first paid gig shooting sports and was even rehired numerous times.

It's Fuji's fault they did not put a more advanced AF system in the XP1. But it is not their fault someone was frustrated with the AF in difficult circumstances when the operational parameters were not optimized.

 

[CopperB]

I rechecked the camera settings and I had remembered to set the AF to area not multi. :0)It was exposure I hadn't changed to spot metering. Apologies for error. I too, use single spot AF for concert photography with my Nikons.

 

[dcsang]

Regarding the AF - yep - I noted that - but as soon as I know it's "dark" or "crappy" lighting I switch to MF.

The beauty about it is this: with third party lenses (i.e. Leica M or others) the focus throw is a LOT easier to handle in MF with the EVF than MF with the Fuji lenses whose throw is extremely long to get the focus down correctly...

This type of thing (the AF hunting) is something I'm familiar with from way back when right up to using the Canon 5D MkI (which also had really bad AF for the cost - at the time- of the camera). The only saving grace i can say is, at least the EVF on the Fuji is good enough (in my opinion mind you - and this is because I HATE EVFs in general) to use to focus manually. The caveat is the focus throw on the Fuji lenses is way too long...

Cheers
Dave

 

[CopperB]

Using the APS-C X cameras in this situation with focus mode set to multi instead of area mode is like reporting a flaw in running shoes when you've put them in the wrong feet.

The APS-C X cameras contrast detection AF is not the systems strongest technology. This makes even more important to understand how to get the most out of the system. This requires reading the manual, reading tutorials on-line and practicing.

I would bet a lot of money the OP's keeper rate under identical conditions would be similar to any other camera lens combination once they learn how to use the camera.

When I bought a D200 it was my first camera with an advanced, multi- purpose AF system. The first time I tried to shoot a sports event the results were terrible... nothing was in focus. Then I read a detailed article on Nikonians about how to configure the D200 AF parameters for action photography. After some practice I got my first paid gig shooting sports and was even rehired numerous times.

It's Fuji's fault they did not put a more advanced AF system in the XP1. But it is not their fault someone was frustrated with the AF in difficult circumstances when the operational parameters were not optimized.

AF was actually set to area. Manual has been read. I've shot a lot of concerts so I'm familiar with the quirks of this genre. This was my first time out with the xpro1. I agree that once I figure a way around this weakness, my keeper rate will improve. That doesn't negate the fact that the AF system in this camera is much less than stellar considering the price tag.

 

[dcsang]

As an FYI - the Canon 5D was about $3300 for the body only - I can honestly say the AF system was no better on that body.

Not trying to "justify" Fuji's lack of a really good AF system (to be honest, I wish all cameras had the AF system of Nikon.. they seem to have nailed it) but my comment re: 5D is more to compare the fact that there are cameras that can and do cost a lot more which have equally "craptacular" AF systems 🙂

Cheers,
Dave