X-Pro 1's Achilles' Heel

[Godfrey]

On people complaining about a camera they don't own: for months and months there have been threads littering RFF about a non-RF camera that was greeted as the second coming of Barnack by a bunch of people that had never touched or seen the brick itself. At one apex of the hype, someone even seriously wrote to the effect that "we don't know it doesn't have a mechanical rangefinder". How's that different than the current outcry? Well, now we have actual reports of performance limitations and a tacit admission by Fuji that all is not golden.

If someone wants to give me an X-1 Pro I'd be happy to test it out. I'm sure I would find it charming, like my X100. But until then, the religious overblown hype and the irrational defense of a not-fully-baked product whose AF won't allow the photog to take advantage of its great high ISO potential in critical situations will keep my dollars right where they are (owed to my credit card for other camera purchases, natch!) 🙂

thumbs up! 🙂 except for the credit card debt. :-(
i pay cash. for everything. if i can't afford to pay cash, i don't buy.

seems to me that many people today want the camera to do everything ... determine and set focus, exposure, wind the shutter, etc. and to do it all with near perfect accuracy all the time, no matter what the circumstances.

i want the camera to do nothing other than what i tell it, when i tell it to. thank the godz there are still cameras that will do that or i'd have to make one.

 

[JHutchins]

I didn't know you could focus using the AE-L/AF-L button, & definitely not in M(anual?) mode (there's nothing in the manual)! I was just complaining to a mutual friend how when the camera is set for S (& I think C) mode AF, pressing the AE-L/AF-L button (even when it's set for AF lock) doesn't actually focus the camera, you still have to 1/2-press the shutter release & simultaneously push the AE-L/AF-L button to lock focus. Most inconvenient & counterintuitive compared to the G2 or any dSLR. Using this "autofocus while in ostensibly manual focus mode" method seems the most G2-like solution.

P.S., welcome to RFF.

Chris, I think if it's in S or C the AE-L/AF-L works as an AE-L button then to focus/focus lock you have to depress the shutter button half way. In M mode, it's the other way around -- the AE-L/AF-L is a focus lock and you lock the exposure with a half depressed shutter button. I like that much, much better since a half-depressed shutter button is how I lock the exposure on every other camera I own with a coupled meter.

As for Achilles's heel -- well, it got him in the end, but Achilles was still quite a badass . The autofocus on this camera does not excite me -- it isn't garbage, but it doesn't excite me. But I definitely am excited about:

The 35/1.4 -- this lens is something else.
ISO 3200
The size & weight
The results I get from M lenses on this body are much, much better than the results I got from M lenses on the M8 (with the caveat that I've not yet used any really wide lenses on it).

 

[furcafe]

John:

Actually, after going to the manual & testing it & in S or C modes, I've found that the AE-L/AF-L button can (when set to do so in Shooting Menu 4) work as a AF-L button, but it only locks when you've already focused using the shutter release, it does not work as an AF + AF-L button like every other camera I've used that has an AF-L button (G2 & D700 included). As I wrote above, this is seems stupid & counterintuitve, IMHO, & is currently my only real complaint in my less than 24 hours as an X-Pro1 owner (perhaps my expectations are unusually low because I was traumatized by being 1 of the 1st M8 buyers). Now that we have this other option that you've discovered/stumbled upon, I can wait for Fuji to fix this oversight in future firmware updates (along w/the aperture blade chatter annoyance, @ least when in OVF mode) rather than immediately emailing a complaint to the proper channels.

Not sure how excited I can get over any new camera, but the 18/2 seems more than good enough for me. I agree that ISO 3200 & even 6400 (equal to 2500 on the M9) is nice, as is something resembling accurate auto white balance. Great to hear that your experience w/mounting M lenses is positive.

Chris, I think if it's in S or C the AE-L/AF-L works as an AE-L button then to focus/focus lock you have to depress the shutter button half way. In M mode, it's the other way around -- the AE-L/AF-L is a focus lock and you lock the exposure with a half depressed shutter button. I like that much, much better since a half-depressed shutter button is how I lock the exposure on every other camera I own with a coupled meter.

As for Achilles's heel -- well, it got him in the end, but Achilles was still quite a badass . The autofocus on this camera does not excite me -- it isn't garbage, but it doesn't excite me. But I definitely am excited about:

The 35/1.4 -- this lens is something else.
ISO 3200
The size & weight
The results I get from M lenses on this body are much, much better than the results I got from M lenses on the M8 (with the caveat that I've not yet used any really wide lenses on it).

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Two weeks ago I did MF with a Jupiter 3 on an M8.2 at the performance of McCartney. Since I thought I would miss quite some shots, because of the shalow DOF, I did a lot of shooting and it turned out that was the best way to go, leaving me with enough sharp shots. Of course not only focussing but also the camera's lightmeter was in manual mode.

this one shot with the 135mm Canon ltm lens

 

[nickw]

Do you recall in which AF mode the demo was set, "Area" or "Multi"? So far, it seems that setting the AF mode to Area in the X-Pro1's Shooting menu + setting the focus mode switch on the front to S (Single AF) is the most like using a RF or "single point" + "single servo" on a Nikon dSLR. With these settings, the X-Pro1's AF appears to work reasonably quickly & accurately (but more like my old Kyocera Contax G2 than an autofocus SLR) in decent to bad light, @ least in my current "test drive" use.

I use the camera with single point focus. Have no problems.

Make sure you pick points of contrast to focus on. So for instance when you have a guy standing with stage lights behind him, try to focus on the side of his head, which is shadowed, contrasting with the bright stage lights behind him, instead of trying to focus on his face which is one big low contrast shadow. Same with any AF camera, although mirrorless cameras take a little more care with this.

This makes it way easier. Pick points of contrast.



And one more things I do which helps:
I switch to manual focus, then hit the AF-L button. Even in manual focus it causes the camera to auto focus. You can see in the DoF scale if it found the right spot or not. This works really well in low light. In fact it work so well I do it in daylight. It's the quickest way to focus and it works well. Then you also don't have to worry about the camera picking a new focus point when you half press the shutter.



So to recap. When doing these 3 things I haven't had problems:
1. Single point AF
2. Pick points of contrast
3. Use manual focus but still have the camera do it for you via AF-L.

 

[nickw]

I should add. According to this post via fuji rumours, Fuji is working on a firmware update to address this:

"John Smith is also testing the X PRO 1. And he got in touch with Fuji to talk about the AF issue: “called Fuji Canada about this AF problem and Gerry, the person at the camera technical support centre, reassured me that Fuji is working on improving the camera. Firmware updates are on the way. I just wish to pass my thanks to Fuji for its concerns for the customers.I was very impressed by the knowledge and helpfulness that I received. ” (via FujiRumors.com)."

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new...nd-tests-fuji-will-soon-address-the-af-issue/
http://johnsmith-johnsimages.blogspot.ca/2012/03/stitchface.html

 

[dcsang]

It's funny to observe how criticizing anything Fuji (and look at that price tag) gets so many so defensive of the products, that at best can be called beta. When something that just launched already gets posts about hoped-for firmware updates, there's something not totally right. But it's swearing in church to call it by its name. But the truth is this is an AF camera that doesn't do AF very well. Nor MF. For more than €2000 euro.

Ha... I could have sworn your post was about the Leica M8 circa early 2007.

I'm not "defensive" although I can see and totally understand how people can put that label on ANYONE who says they "like" or can "accept" a particular thing (in this case a camera) but it is, as I said in my blog post/review on the Fuji X-Pro1 "Your Mileage May Vary" - if you like it, good for you, if you don't like it, good for you too. There are many many many options out there for all of us now when it comes to digital cameras and no one camera is anywhere near perfect. Find the one that suits your needs and grab it - if it's not available yet, then sit tight with what you have and hope that one of the companies will introduce/produce your dream camera sooner rather than later 😀

Cheers,
Dave

 

[furcafe]

Per my exchange w/JHutchins, may I ask how you figured this out? Messing w/the camera? Prior experience w/the X100 or something? Because it's not mentioned in the manual (@ least the English version) & seems to be counterintuitive (why should an AF-L button do anything when you're Manual focus mode?).

Thanks, Chris

Edit: My bad, it is mentioned in the manual (page 45) :bang:, but it still wouldn't naturally occur to me to look in the M section for how to use the AF-L button (this may account for my incompetence to practice corporate law). My other complaint about the AE-L/AF-L button not focusing in S or C mode still stands, however.

I switch to manual focus, then hit the AF-L button. Even in manual focus it causes the camera to auto focus. You can see in the DoF scale if it found the right spot or not. This works really well in low light. In fact it work so well I do it in daylight. It's the quickest way to focus and it works well. Then you also don't have to worry about the camera picking a new focus point when you half press the shutter.

 

[dcsang]

Per my exchange w/JHutchins, may I ask how you figured this out? Messing w/the camera? Prior experience w/the X100 or something? Because it's not mentioned in the manual (@ least the English version) & seems to be counterintuitive (why should an AF-L button do anything when you're Manual focus mode?).

Thanks, Chris

Chris,

I figured this out after switching the camera from "S" (single) or "C" (continuous) to "M" (manual) focus and having it in "EVF" mode - I noted that something pops up in the EVF within the viewfinder - it says ""AF-L One-Touch AF".

It's not intuitive but it is rather cool once you figure it out 🙂

Cheers,
Dave

 

[furcafe]

Dave:

Ha! I guess these modern cameras are like video games: 1/2 the "fun" is finding the Easter eggs.

Chris,

I figured this out after switching the camera from "S" (single) or "C" (continuous) to "M" (manual) focus and having it in "EVF" mode - I noted that something pops up in the EVF within the viewfinder - it says ""AF-L One-Touch AF".

It's not intuitive but it is rather cool once you figure it out 🙂

Cheers,
Dave

 

[RealXenuis]

Welcome to the internet. 😀

Indeed.

Sure, fanboys fan, and trolls troll. On DPR, the trolls, or at least insincere posters, overwhelm the reasonable AND the fanboys. You're on a Fuji forum/thread? Imagine, those who like Fuji and expect to like their next camera! The audacity. The diff, in my experience, is, the "fanboys" generally have a reasonable approach. They accept and acknowledge the shortcomings of that camera. Doesn't mean they think it's perfect - and generally, they say so - but rather, the troll will ONly say how imperfect it is, then unfairly compare it to every camera around. Sort of kitchen-sinking it. When a "fanboy" objects to "the AF is total ****e", it doesn't mean they're apologists, couldn't it just be that it's not THAT bad? Are there other aspects of the camera that might exceptional, even? Sure. Just like with many other camera models from other mfgr's. A fanboy - to satisfy the reciprocal of the troll - would go farther, like "the AF is the best ever and Fuji is the best company!". But, generally, they don't. Do they?

So which is the more zealous? I can suggest with great confidence that on the Fuji forums I've lurked and posted, there is a great more "trollish" types than there are true "fanboys". You may not agree, but a quick glance through even just the titles of threads sort of makes my case for me. And they're certainly the more extreme, unreasonable, and vocal.

In that context, I can excuse them ("fanboys") for not making it easy for comments such as "the Fuji is the worst 18mm lens produced this millenium" to be thrown around w/o objection. Again, no one is saying the AF on the XP1 is great, or that the X10 doesn't have orbs.

By all (non-troll) accounts, DPR has become a quasi-joke, when it comes to threads about popular cams. It's inundated with unhelpful and absurd postings and threads. It's mindlessly confrontational and does little to facilitate reasonable discourse. It's basically a playground. I would really hate for RFF to go that direction. The End.

p.s. Jsrockit, this isn't directed at you, i am curtailing this in response to other postings on here, in general!

 

[dcsang]

Dave:

Ha! I guess these modern cameras are like video games: 1/2 the "fun" is finding the Easter eggs.

HA !!

I hear if you push "up-up-left-right-down-left-up" while pressing the AF-L/AE-L button you get an extra life and unlimited weapons !! 😀 😀 😀 😀

Dave

 

[furcafe]

I was actually hoping that the stupid Q button would turn me into a William Eggleston avatar & render me invisible to bystanders when shooting on the street.

HA !!

I hear if you push "up-up-left-right-down-left-up" while pressing the AF-L/AE-L button you get an extra life and unlimited weapons !! 😀 😀 😀 😀

Dave

 

[JHutchins]

John:

Actually, after going to the manual & testing it & in S or C modes, I've found that the AE-L/AF-L button can (when set to do so in Shooting Menu 4) work as a AF-L button, but it only locks when you've already focused using the shutter release, it does not work as an AF + AF-L button like every other camera I've used that has an AF-L button (G2 & D700 included). As I wrote above, this is seems stupid & counterintuitve, IMHO, & is currently my only real complaint in my less than 24 hours as an X-Pro1 owner (perhaps my expectations are unusually low because I was traumatized by being 1 of the 1st M8 buyers). Now that we have this other option that you've discovered/stumbled upon, I can wait for Fuji to fix this oversight in future firmware updates (along w/the aperture blade chatter annoyance, @ least when in OVF mode) rather than immediately emailing a complaint to the proper channels.

Not sure how excited I can get over any new camera, but the 18/2 seems more than good enough for me. I agree that ISO 3200 & even 6400 (equal to 2500 on the M9) is nice, as is something resembling accurate auto white balance. Great to hear that your experience w/mounting M lenses is positive.

Chris,

If you turn off the live view altogether (View Mode button) the aperture chatter goes away when you're using the optical viewfinder. I agree, it is irksome & I'd like to see it just plain gone. I can live with the brightness variations/adjustments in the EVF that I see using M lenses and I think a lot of other people would agree that it's not at all bad and far, far better than that skittering bug sound. I would download that firmware revision in a heartbeat or even pay for some jailbreak firmware modification.

And I'm looking forward to getting the 18/2. I'm hoping the shop here gets some more lenses before Folk Fest starts next week. The 60 I'm leaning against getting any time soon as I'm such a slave to the 75 lux and I'm finding that I *can* focus it pretty easily on the Fuji. Oh, the other advantage to leaving it in "Manual" focus mode and using the AF-L button to focus -- you can bring up the focus magnifier only when it's in M so when you're frequently swapping out to manual focus lenses that you might want to occasionally use the magnifier for (cough -- 75 Summilux -- cough) it's easier.

 

[dcsang]

I was actually hoping that the stupid Q button would turn me into a William Eggleston avatar & render me invisible to bystanders when shooting on the street.

heh.. the "Q" button stands for "quirky" ; as in, there are quirky things about the camera - but like most quirky things, I accept them, love them, hug them and take them home and name them "George" 😉

Cheers,
Dave

 

[furcafe]

Not sure about that, maybe your 35/1.4 is just quieter (the X100's built-in lens is). Even when live view is switched off & OVF is selected (not eye control auto) via the View Mode button, the camera will still chatter away. Try this: turn the camera on w/it set to OVF only, & then hold it away from your eye & pan the lens between areas of differing brightness. You should be able to clearly hear the chatter. If you're backlit & point the lens at your face you can even see them opening & closing as you move the camera around. The only thing that makes me a little pessimistic about a firmware fix is that this appears to be related to how the camera adjusts the brightness of the OVF framelines (makes sense considering it's also electronically generated).

Thanks for the tip re: focus magnifier in M mode. Might try it w/the Noctilux, too, when that day comes.

Chris,

If you turn off the live view altogether (View Mode button) the aperture chatter goes away when you're using the optical viewfinder. I agree, it is irksome & I'd like to see it just plain gone. I can live with the brightness variations/adjustments in the EVF that I see using M lenses and I think a lot of other people would agree that it's not at all bad and far, far better than that skittering bug sound. I would download that firmware revision in a heartbeat or even pay for some jailbreak firmware modification.

 

[JHutchins]

Sorry, you also have to have power save turned on (default is off). It definitely goes away. My lens is quite noisy.

 

[furcafe]

Doh, :bang: another hidden "feature." It's like the cameras are programmed by videogamers & the instruction manuals are written by contracts attorneys. 😉

Thanks again.

Sorry, you also have to have power save turned on (default is off). It definitely goes away. My lens is quite noisy.

 

[gavinlg]

This is exactly the same thing with the x100. Like exactly. Everyone denouncing the camera, saying it was useless and that autofocus was terrible. In reality - the x100 AF wasn't too bad to begin with, and now it's great. Give fuji a bit of time to sort the camera out. For now, learn how to use it how it is. Simple. It's not supposed to be a foolproof camera, or a point and shoot.

 

[gavinlg]

My other complaint about the AE-L/AF-L button not focusing in S or C mode still stands, however.

Treat the AF-L button as a lock button. First AF where you want it to be, and then press the AF-L button. Now the focus is locked at that distance.

It's really not that hard, and works very well if you just play ball and use it the way it's supposed to be used.