Samuel D
Established
Kodak Xtol intrigues me for its relatively benign working solution, plus of course its advertised qualities as a developer.
I’ve been browsing the UK and US Material Safety Data Sheets available here (search for ‘Xtol’ in the ‘Product Name / Keyword’ field). I recommend the British ones as being slightly less scary.
Opening the packet and dumping the powder into a mixing vessel seems to incur some risk of harmful Part A dust getting into the air. Perhaps those who have done this all their life pooh-pooh that risk, but I’d still like to know best practices.
Another difficulty is the need to mix 5 litres of working solution at a time, meaning you have to store over a gallon of the stuff and use it before it goes bad.
I thought of mixing it in the courtyard (I live in a flat). The courtyard has a tap and grated drain. I’d mix the Xtol in a dedicated bucket with a pre-measured mark indicating the 5-litre level, and then funnel the contents into five, 1 litre, amber glass bottles and cap them tightly. I’d rinse the bucket with loads of water and store it in the basement.
Using about half a bottle per developing session, I’d store half-full bottles with a squirt of Protectan. I’d envisage using all the working solution within Kodak’s 6 month storage guideline, but if not I’d only have to mix up Xtol twice a year.
Does this sound like a decent approach?
I’ve been browsing the UK and US Material Safety Data Sheets available here (search for ‘Xtol’ in the ‘Product Name / Keyword’ field). I recommend the British ones as being slightly less scary.
Opening the packet and dumping the powder into a mixing vessel seems to incur some risk of harmful Part A dust getting into the air. Perhaps those who have done this all their life pooh-pooh that risk, but I’d still like to know best practices.
Another difficulty is the need to mix 5 litres of working solution at a time, meaning you have to store over a gallon of the stuff and use it before it goes bad.
I thought of mixing it in the courtyard (I live in a flat). The courtyard has a tap and grated drain. I’d mix the Xtol in a dedicated bucket with a pre-measured mark indicating the 5-litre level, and then funnel the contents into five, 1 litre, amber glass bottles and cap them tightly. I’d rinse the bucket with loads of water and store it in the basement.
Using about half a bottle per developing session, I’d store half-full bottles with a squirt of Protectan. I’d envisage using all the working solution within Kodak’s 6 month storage guideline, but if not I’d only have to mix up Xtol twice a year.
Does this sound like a decent approach?
spaceistheplace
Established
Bonjour Samuel !
Don't be too scared to mix it, I live in a flat too, and have always mixed it in my bathroom, I have never felt sick or anything while mixing it, it's a pretty straightforward process, once mixed I put it in 1l bottles and try to squeeze the air out, I have used Xtol successfully after 6/7 months.
If you have any more questions let me know!
Don't be too scared to mix it, I live in a flat too, and have always mixed it in my bathroom, I have never felt sick or anything while mixing it, it's a pretty straightforward process, once mixed I put it in 1l bottles and try to squeeze the air out, I have used Xtol successfully after 6/7 months.
If you have any more questions let me know!
lynnb
Veteran
Sounds a good approach to me. I mix in a plastic bucket in the laundry with the extractor fan running, then decant into dark 750ml wine bottles with screw-cap lids. I store these in a cool dark closet.
You could always wear an approved dust mask if you want to be extra careful when mixing the powder.
I've had XTOL go off before so I use it within 4 months just to be safe. Having to mix 5l in one go and the limited shelf life compared to Rodinal is the only drawback to this developer I can see. I do like the results with it.
You could always wear an approved dust mask if you want to be extra careful when mixing the powder.
I've had XTOL go off before so I use it within 4 months just to be safe. Having to mix 5l in one go and the limited shelf life compared to Rodinal is the only drawback to this developer I can see. I do like the results with it.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
I don't use XTOL any longer, but when mixing the two powder developers I do use I pour the powders into the mixing bucket slowly, in front of the exhaust fan. When done do a quick wipe down and rinse of the sink or counter. I also wear safety glasses when mixing chems.
The small glass bottles with the squirt of protectant are the correct route. I use Bloxygen (easily available in the US) and have not lost any developer to oxidation in over ten years. I routinely have six or eight different developers in partial bottles in the darkroom.
With XTOL, as I recall, extra care in decanting is important, you want to minimize the air bubbles when pouring into the bottles. IIRC a Kodak tech support guy told me this. I follow this practice with all developers. In fact, everything is decanted into glass bottles in my darkroom, Rodinal, DD-X, even Moersch ECO 4812.
The small glass bottles with the squirt of protectant are the correct route. I use Bloxygen (easily available in the US) and have not lost any developer to oxidation in over ten years. I routinely have six or eight different developers in partial bottles in the darkroom.
With XTOL, as I recall, extra care in decanting is important, you want to minimize the air bubbles when pouring into the bottles. IIRC a Kodak tech support guy told me this. I follow this practice with all developers. In fact, everything is decanted into glass bottles in my darkroom, Rodinal, DD-X, even Moersch ECO 4812.
joeswe
Well-known
Solution 1 (airborne dust):
Cut open the bags under water using clean nitrile gloves for protection and a clean pair of scissors.
Solution 2 (increase life expectancy of Xtol and never worry again about "sudden death")
Use demin water to prepare Xtol and store in a 5 liter (or two 3 liter) wine bladder(s) ("bag-in-box" type).
This is what I have been doing for years and Xtol will keep well past 12 months without going off.
Cut open the bags under water using clean nitrile gloves for protection and a clean pair of scissors.
Solution 2 (increase life expectancy of Xtol and never worry again about "sudden death")
Use demin water to prepare Xtol and store in a 5 liter (or two 3 liter) wine bladder(s) ("bag-in-box" type).
This is what I have been doing for years and Xtol will keep well past 12 months without going off.
Samuel D
Established
Thanks Raúl, Lynn, Bob, and joeswe.
Do any of you wear a dust mask for mixing Xtol?
Don’t worry, I’m not paranoid and will mix chemicals without undue alarm. I just want to take whatever precautions are beneficial and practical.
Opening the packet underwater is an intriguing idea.
By the way, whether opened in water or air, where do you dispose of the empty packets? In a plastic bag in the household waste?
Do any of you wear a dust mask for mixing Xtol?
Don’t worry, I’m not paranoid and will mix chemicals without undue alarm. I just want to take whatever precautions are beneficial and practical.
Opening the packet underwater is an intriguing idea.
By the way, whether opened in water or air, where do you dispose of the empty packets? In a plastic bag in the household waste?
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joeswe
Well-known
After flushing the emptied bags with water you can dispose of them like normal garbage/waste.
BLKRCAT
75% Film
If you pour slowly the dust can be kept to a minimum. I also store in wine bladders with distilled water. I've had a batch mixed for around 5 months now and seems perfectly fine. No yellowing, clouding or funky smells.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I store XTOL in green scotch bottles. Since they hold only about 25 oz., it takes 6 to hold a fresh batch of XTOL. I fill them almost right up to the bottom of the cork, leaving only enough air space so that the cork will seat (otherwise it will push back from air pressure). I recently had a bottle left from around 15 months ago. I tried it on a roll of Delta 400, and got great negatives! I don't use the preservative.
With all that said, I may not use XTOL any more. I do like D-76 with Tri-X, and with the Plus-X I still have. And using up a gallon of D-76 is slightly faster than 5 liters of XTOL. I might just use DD-X now for my Ilford Delta films.
The health hazard of XTOL does seem concerning. I didn't know about it. Mixing it outdoors sounds like a smart idea!
With all that said, I may not use XTOL any more. I do like D-76 with Tri-X, and with the Plus-X I still have. And using up a gallon of D-76 is slightly faster than 5 liters of XTOL. I might just use DD-X now for my Ilford Delta films.
The health hazard of XTOL does seem concerning. I didn't know about it. Mixing it outdoors sounds like a smart idea!
Ronald M
Veteran
Put in two or three quart bottles , some in 8 oz bottles which you refill from the quarts.
Throw away the rest.
Say two our fathers on a hail Mary before developing to insure the stuff works.
I give up on it decades ago.
Oh and if the pack is out of date, it IS out out date. It will look normal and may work for a week, then KaPut. Long story.
At the time I was trying, I was on a first name basis with the folks at Kodak and they told me there was was no VALID home test to measure activity. Better make that 2 Hail Marys. I make my own D76 by weighing out chems for 20 years now. Never a problem at all. A liter costs a buck.
Throw away the rest.
Say two our fathers on a hail Mary before developing to insure the stuff works.
I give up on it decades ago.
Oh and if the pack is out of date, it IS out out date. It will look normal and may work for a week, then KaPut. Long story.
At the time I was trying, I was on a first name basis with the folks at Kodak and they told me there was was no VALID home test to measure activity. Better make that 2 Hail Marys. I make my own D76 by weighing out chems for 20 years now. Never a problem at all. A liter costs a buck.
presspass
filmshooter
If you keep the envelope close to the water and pour it slowly, you will minimize the dust issue. Keep in mind Xtol, as with all developers, should be mixed with distilled water. Mixing any of them with tap water invites irregular results and, sometimes, premature expiration. When I was doing large volumes of film - 12 to 20 rolls a week - I used Kodak hard rubber tanks with floating lids and replenished the Xtol. I would change the solution in the tank every six months or so; it probably would have lasted longer. I kept the stock in amber glass bottles. To minimize the amount of air in the bottle, you can also use well-washed clear glass marbles to take up the space formerly occupied by the developer you used. Xtol is a wonderful developer; the only reason I quit using it was a fascination with D-23.
joeswe
Well-known
He he ... I knew that one was coming ... Seriously, I wish we could finally have one Xtol thread without you trolling along, trying to enlighten the community with your nuggets of outdated wisdom. Why this stubborn insistence to badmouth a product you haven't used for the past twenty years?
In stark contrast to your full mouthed allegations here (based on anecdotal evidence from a quarter of a century ago ...), Xtol has been a very successful product for Kodak. If Xtol was really the unreliable product you suggest, it would have never survived twenty years in the market. It's as simple as that.
Of course there is no home test to "measure" the activity of Xtol solution. Neither is there a simple home test to measure the activity of any other developer in the world. So what? All you need to do is a simple clip test, that will show you if your Xtol is dead or alive. Generations of photographers have used it successfully. No need to "measure" anything there. And no need to get anal over it. The only time I do a clip test with Xtol is when its past 12 months old and it has never let me down. It is a great, entirely reliable developer when you follow some very simple and basic precautions as outlined in this thread.
And by the way, refilling smaller bottles from bigger ones as you suggest is not such a clever idea at all, because each time your pour something into something else you will get the contents of both bottles into intense contact with oxygen.
presspass
filmshooter
As to the premature failure of Xtol, it seemed to be specific to the early one liter packages which were discontinued about 10 years ago. The five liter packages did not have the problem then and have not had them since. Clearly, the package should be intact, but other than that, there are no reputable known problems with the larger packets.
unixrevolution
Well-known
I mix XTOL in a 5 gallon bucket in my kitchen and store in an Air-Evac bottle. I also try to use as much as I can, as quickly as I can, and I dilute 1:1 or 1:2 or 1:3 (depending on application) and one-shot it all.
It's a fun little race to use it all up before it dies. But I've never had problems with it going off early.
I may switch to multiple 1l bottles rather than the gallon Air-EVAC (the remainder that doesn't go into the air-evac gets used basically immediately) simply because the air-evac jug is a PITA.
It's a fun little race to use it all up before it dies. But I've never had problems with it going off early.
I may switch to multiple 1l bottles rather than the gallon Air-EVAC (the remainder that doesn't go into the air-evac gets used basically immediately) simply because the air-evac jug is a PITA.
presspass
filmshooter
The plastic bottles, even the Air-Evac ones, are porous enough to leak air. There are some plastic bottles that are impervious and designed specifically for developers. The best solution, until you drop one, is amber glass bottles.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I save the leaders off my films to use as test strips. If they turn black, I use the developer. So far they have always turned black.
This is my understanding as well. The one liter packs were discontinued when some people were experiencing "XTOL failure." Personally, I have never experienced XTOL failure, even when using the one liter packs.
I do use D-76 for conventional films like Tri-X. I use XTOL with films like Ilford Delta Pro; and when I want max shadow detail/enhanced speed with conventional films. I also get great results with Ilford DD-X, which is very convenient as a one-shot concentrate. It is a good bet for those who don't want to mix 5 liters; as is T-Max developer.
Samuel D
Established
That’s good going and nice to hear. It’s interesting to note that a 1998 Xtol datasheet said this about Xtol’s keeping properties:
“Mixed solution has excellent shelf life (full bottles keep one year after mixing)”
And:
“High resistance to breakdown from oxidation during storage”
By 2004 the datasheet had modified that to this:
“Good shelf life (six months after mixing when stored in full bottles)”
With this explanation:
“To help ensure best results, we have changed our recommended shelf life and dilutions for XTOL Developer. … The change in recommendations does not indicate any change in the formulation of the developer.”
The 1-litre version was dropped in this datasheet.
By 2008 the datasheet again included a 1-litre format, CAT No. 859 0176. Perhaps this is still available in some markets? The shelf life was given as six months and the 2004 explanation was dropped.
I know from this page that a 2000 datasheet exists. I wonder if that says something else again?
Ilftoec DD-X sounds very attractive too, and is obviously more convenient, but it costs much more than Xtol. I’m poor enough for that to matter.
Samuel D
Established
By the way, Ronald, I’ve heard several such tales of woe about Xtol. I take them seriously, but I’m a careful worker and hope that, if anyone has trouble with Xtol, it’ll be the next guy and not me. This could be pure hubris.
traveler_101
American abroad
I am about to mix up a pack. I mix it in the bathroom with the window open and an exhaust fan on. I use a large bucket to mix it in and pour into dark glass wine bottles with screw caps: fill bottles to the brim and use saran wrap under the caps to seal tightly. No air gets in. Stored in a dark cabinet in cool place.
One advantage it mixes easily. Another is that it is harmless; it can go right down the drain.
I use it diluted 1:1. According to the tech sheet that is the highest dilution recommended and yet i read about people using it 1:2 or even 1:3. Not sure what the advantage is and I wonder about the risks.
I use XTOL with Fomapan 200 and 400 but still use D-76 with Tri-X.
One advantage it mixes easily. Another is that it is harmless; it can go right down the drain.
I use it diluted 1:1. According to the tech sheet that is the highest dilution recommended and yet i read about people using it 1:2 or even 1:3. Not sure what the advantage is and I wonder about the risks.
I use XTOL with Fomapan 200 and 400 but still use D-76 with Tri-X.
mcfingon
Western Australia
I have been trying Xtol at 1+2 and 1+3 lately. It works fine in both dilutions. You should get an increase in acutance and more noticeable grain with less contrast by doing this. With Delta 100 film I am seeing a little more acutance and lower contrast, but there's so little grain that it's hard to see a change there. The main advantage is to have a reliable and less expensive one-shot developer as I'm only using 100ml of developer with 300ml of water for each 35mm film. My Xtol 1+3 dev time for Delta 100 to give good scannable negs is 11 minutes at 20 degrees C with 10 seconds agitation per minute.