katgut@earthlink.net
Established
Hi,
I'm awaiting a shipment of Xtol, which is apparently only available in powder to make 5 liters. Will it be possible to simply prepare 1 liter and then dilute as needed? Or will it fail to properly dissolve?
thanks
I'm awaiting a shipment of Xtol, which is apparently only available in powder to make 5 liters. Will it be possible to simply prepare 1 liter and then dilute as needed? Or will it fail to properly dissolve?
thanks
snip
Established
If I were you I'd weigh the powder(s?) into 5 equal batches and prepare in 1 litre portions as needed.
//Jan
mfogiel
Veteran
This is not recommended. You will be better off dissolving everything and pouring it into smaller glass bottles to the brim, and then capping tightly, this way it will last for a long time.
Justin Low
J for Justin
I usually mix a 5 liter packet of Xtol to 2 liters of solution. It takes more effort to get all the powder dissolved, but it simplifies storage greatly.
Photon42
burn the box
This is what I do as well and it well extends the referenced six month life time. If you want to be sure, check the developers activity with a snippet of film upfront. Stick it in in daylight for a couple of minutes or so. XTOL is reported to work binary (if not digital
). If the developer is flipped over, you should not see any more reaction on the film.@marek: you're up way to early for a Saturday ...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Mixing partial packages is one of those things that is theoretically a bad idea, because you can never be sure that the components are evenly mixed in the powder, which in turn means that your five one-litre batches may differ quite widely -- even to the point of unusability.
In practice, quite a lot of people get away with it -- except when they don't. Personally it's not a risk I'd take.
Edit: I just realized that I answered the wrong question and that Justin answered it properly. Sorry!
Cheers,
R.
In practice, quite a lot of people get away with it -- except when they don't. Personally it's not a risk I'd take.
Edit: I just realized that I answered the wrong question and that Justin answered it properly. Sorry!
Cheers,
R.
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Freakscene
Obscure member
I conducted the following experiment: using a sonicator I shook the Xtol powder for one hour. Theoretically this is the worst treatment you can give a powder to separate out particles of different sizes. I then split the 5L of Xtol into portions to make 135mL of stock Xtol. I mixed this with distilled water and used this Xtol diluted 1+3 in a Paterson tank, to develop two rolls of film - one roll of TMY shot normally and one Kodak Black and whiteFilm Process Control Strip (CAT 180 2990). I measured these sensitometrically and there was statistically no significant difference between these films and others processed at the same time from Xtol mixed to 5L and used to develop films.
To work out why this was the case, I measured the particle sizes in Xtol using a Malvern Mastersizer 2000 laser diffraction analyser. I found that there was only a fairly narrow spread of particle sizes in Xtol. Remember that you need to measure your water volumes and powder weights VERY carefully when working like this - small variations make a bigger difference by % at small volumes. So yes, if you weigh and measure carefully, this should be okay. But don't blame me if this ruins your images of a yowie, bigfoot, Lord Lucan, space aliens or whatever.
Mixing all 5L of Xtol and storing it carefully saves time, since you don't have to mix powder evey time you want to develop some film. You could also always buy 1L packs of Fomadon Excel, which is pretty much exactly the same as Xtol.
You can buy or make PC TEA, pyrocat-MC or a host of other developers based on organic glycols that keep the ascorbate stable and in solution.
You can check for developer activity by purchasing a 100 microlitre pipette from a scientific supplier and appling drops of your chosen developer to the exposed tag end of a film at 30s, 1 minute, 2 minute and 4 minute intervals, then fixing. You should see a progressive increase in density - it works better if you can measure it with a sensitometer, but as long as you look carefully in good light and know what it should look like, you'll be okay.
Marty
To work out why this was the case, I measured the particle sizes in Xtol using a Malvern Mastersizer 2000 laser diffraction analyser. I found that there was only a fairly narrow spread of particle sizes in Xtol. Remember that you need to measure your water volumes and powder weights VERY carefully when working like this - small variations make a bigger difference by % at small volumes. So yes, if you weigh and measure carefully, this should be okay. But don't blame me if this ruins your images of a yowie, bigfoot, Lord Lucan, space aliens or whatever.
Mixing all 5L of Xtol and storing it carefully saves time, since you don't have to mix powder evey time you want to develop some film. You could also always buy 1L packs of Fomadon Excel, which is pretty much exactly the same as Xtol.
You can buy or make PC TEA, pyrocat-MC or a host of other developers based on organic glycols that keep the ascorbate stable and in solution.
You can check for developer activity by purchasing a 100 microlitre pipette from a scientific supplier and appling drops of your chosen developer to the exposed tag end of a film at 30s, 1 minute, 2 minute and 4 minute intervals, then fixing. You should see a progressive increase in density - it works better if you can measure it with a sensitometer, but as long as you look carefully in good light and know what it should look like, you'll be okay.
Marty
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Marty,
WOW!
thanks very much for all that.
Have you tried the same trick with any other developers? Would you suspect that uniformity of particle size is (a) relatively recent or (b) limited to some but not all developers (how important is particle density compared with particle size) or (c) more likely with Kodak than with some other manufacturers?
Even if you've not previously addressed the above questions, I'd be grateful for a guess, on the grounds that your guesses are probably quite well informed!
Cheers,
Roger
WOW!
thanks very much for all that.
Have you tried the same trick with any other developers? Would you suspect that uniformity of particle size is (a) relatively recent or (b) limited to some but not all developers (how important is particle density compared with particle size) or (c) more likely with Kodak than with some other manufacturers?
Even if you've not previously addressed the above questions, I'd be grateful for a guess, on the grounds that your guesses are probably quite well informed!
Cheers,
Roger
Freakscene
Obscure member
I have not tried this with any other developers. Other developers that I am interested in seem to have good shelf stability in my experience. In fact I'd never had a problem with Xtol, using the multiple, full, small bottles storage method, until last March when we had twenty days over 30 °C in a row, with several days over 40°C and the Xtol I'd been storing just didn't work at 1+3 anymore. I lost some photos of our friend's twin baby girls, so I figured I'd better work something out.
Scientifically, my trial isn't very rigorous because I didn't check what the particles _were_. There may have been a significant size difference between different components, but because most of them had a reasonably overlapping range, the general analysis that I did could not pick out any one component. To do this thoroughly one would have to measure particle size and density before the developer is mixed at the factory and have a much better understanding than I do of what happens when you mix them.
I think chemical manufacturing processes have been stable for some time, but I do remember D76 being grainier 20 odd years ago in high school than it is now. Changes may have occurred. I can't be sure whether different manufacturers' products would be similar in particle size or, indeed, if they would be similar in another developer that uses hydroquinone or some other components that are not part of the formulation of Xtol. I do suspect that modern milling makes powders of fairly regular size.
I am a biologist who did this as part of a weekend spent working up strategies to prevent Xtol from failing. I don't know that much about how complex mixtures of dry chemicals interact except that it is extremely complicated and that size, density, texture, surface charge and a whole bunch of other things really matter. I can only suggest carefully weighing small amounts of developer powders and trying it. But make sure you standardise what you are developing (the Kodak control strips are great for this) and repeat the process a meaningful number of times - I'd suggest at least 10 before you draw any conclusions about the process.
Marty
Scientifically, my trial isn't very rigorous because I didn't check what the particles _were_. There may have been a significant size difference between different components, but because most of them had a reasonably overlapping range, the general analysis that I did could not pick out any one component. To do this thoroughly one would have to measure particle size and density before the developer is mixed at the factory and have a much better understanding than I do of what happens when you mix them.
I think chemical manufacturing processes have been stable for some time, but I do remember D76 being grainier 20 odd years ago in high school than it is now. Changes may have occurred. I can't be sure whether different manufacturers' products would be similar in particle size or, indeed, if they would be similar in another developer that uses hydroquinone or some other components that are not part of the formulation of Xtol. I do suspect that modern milling makes powders of fairly regular size.
I am a biologist who did this as part of a weekend spent working up strategies to prevent Xtol from failing. I don't know that much about how complex mixtures of dry chemicals interact except that it is extremely complicated and that size, density, texture, surface charge and a whole bunch of other things really matter. I can only suggest carefully weighing small amounts of developer powders and trying it. But make sure you standardise what you are developing (the Kodak control strips are great for this) and repeat the process a meaningful number of times - I'd suggest at least 10 before you draw any conclusions about the process.
Marty
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Mixing a batch smaller than 5L is silly, IMO. Here's what I do ... I use an empty 5L box wine container. (No, I don't drink box wine, my wife uses it to make a wine spritzer. To each their own ... I have no prejudice against boxes, I simply have not found a 5L box that I like.)
I remove the bladder from the cardboard container, rinse thoroughly, replace it into the cardboard box, mix the XTol in a separate vessel large enough to do the job, then fill the bladder with the XTol, replace the valve, secure the lot with some packing tape over the cardboard flap, Bob's your uncle.
This keeps the XTol fresh for forever (OK, I haven't tested that), and the valve is quite nifty. Why screw around with dividing the powder and hoping for the best?
If you don't like the wine in the box, pour it down the drain.
I remove the bladder from the cardboard container, rinse thoroughly, replace it into the cardboard box, mix the XTol in a separate vessel large enough to do the job, then fill the bladder with the XTol, replace the valve, secure the lot with some packing tape over the cardboard flap, Bob's your uncle.
This keeps the XTol fresh for forever (OK, I haven't tested that), and the valve is quite nifty. Why screw around with dividing the powder and hoping for the best?
If you don't like the wine in the box, pour it down the drain.
Freakscene
Obscure member
Cask wine makes very nice vinegar. If you like it, don't pour it down the sink (that's a waste); make salad dressing.
Marty
Marty
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Marty,
Thanks once again. Your point about testing 10x is indeed important; I am sometimes depressed by people who make confident assertions on the basis of one 'test'.
Cheers,
R.
Thanks once again. Your point about testing 10x is indeed important; I am sometimes depressed by people who make confident assertions on the basis of one 'test'.
Cheers,
R.
besk
Well-known
Here is the method taught to me many years ago to divide up powders in the laboratory to ensure accurate samples.
I have followed it in the past to divide up D-76 with success.
Be sure to wear a mask!
Pour the entire contents of the developer onto a smooth flat surface.
Using a spoon etc. (gently to avoid dust) mix the powder developer thoroughly.
Pile it up into the shape of a cone. Use a long flat bladed instrument (large knife etc.) to push ALL of the powder into the cone by scraping it along the surface to the cone.
Use the blade to cut the cone from the top into quarters as uniform as possible.
Use the blade to separate the oposite quarters from each other and join these opposite quarters together.
This procedure has spit the single cone of powder into two uniform halves.
Now if you have followed this to this point you need to put one of those halves to one side. This leaves one half on the flat surface.
Then repeat the whole procedure above to divide it into quarters, 1/8 etc.
Note that this will not gurantee the weight of each portion which will need to be addressed in some way. One way is to accurately weigh each of the portions and mix with the appropriate amount of water.
I have followed it in the past to divide up D-76 with success.
Be sure to wear a mask!
Pour the entire contents of the developer onto a smooth flat surface.
Using a spoon etc. (gently to avoid dust) mix the powder developer thoroughly.
Pile it up into the shape of a cone. Use a long flat bladed instrument (large knife etc.) to push ALL of the powder into the cone by scraping it along the surface to the cone.
Use the blade to cut the cone from the top into quarters as uniform as possible.
Use the blade to separate the oposite quarters from each other and join these opposite quarters together.
This procedure has spit the single cone of powder into two uniform halves.
Now if you have followed this to this point you need to put one of those halves to one side. This leaves one half on the flat surface.
Then repeat the whole procedure above to divide it into quarters, 1/8 etc.
Note that this will not gurantee the weight of each portion which will need to be addressed in some way. One way is to accurately weigh each of the portions and mix with the appropriate amount of water.
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Turtle
Veteran
all it takes to be able to mix 5 litres is a 5 litre container, which is not exactly expensive. Even in partially filled containers it lasts ages (2+ months). In completely full brown plastic bottles with a good seal it lasts in excess of 7 months (by experience). I have never had anything other than perfectly consistent negs from xtol, despite having water quality that can best be described as the worst on planet earth. I use the 5l bottle for mixing and then several small 1L sized bottles (which cost about $2 each) for storage. I do a film leader test if it has been sitting about ages just to be sure and so far - touch wood - no issues at all.
PS The 5l pack, diluted 1+2 or 1+3 is also incredibly economical. 15-20L working dev for $10 which for some is all they will do in 6 months! The failures associated with the 1L packets would seem to be ancient history as I cannot recall reading about anyone having failure issues with 5l packets when properly stored, but maybe I am just forgetful.
PS The 5l pack, diluted 1+2 or 1+3 is also incredibly economical. 15-20L working dev for $10 which for some is all they will do in 6 months! The failures associated with the 1L packets would seem to be ancient history as I cannot recall reading about anyone having failure issues with 5l packets when properly stored, but maybe I am just forgetful.
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Freakscene
Obscure member
Your water cannot be the worst: Adelaide tap water kills Xtol stone dead within 1 hour of mixing. For a long time international shipping did not take on drinking water in Adelaide, a distinction unknown elsewhere in the "developed" world.
I agree that Xtol is remarkably consistent, except when it isn't. When it failed on me it did so spectacularly - I got maybe 1/10 my usual density. I am careful about storage and testing now, even though I use about 10L a month.
Marty
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venchka
Veteran
On August 1, 2008 I followed Trius' method. I had a 3L blasser and put the remained in a 2L amber container full to the top. Both 3L bladder & 2L bottle reside in my 'fridge. The Xtol in the bladder worked fine 2 weeks ago. I plan to use some more this week.
Keith: I'm very jealous. I wish our water markters had as much senses as yours do. In fact, Nestle sends 400-500 truck loads a day full of water from a plant about a mile from my house. I need to talk to them about using the bladder containers.
Keith: I'm very jealous. I wish our water markters had as much senses as yours do. In fact, Nestle sends 400-500 truck loads a day full of water from a plant about a mile from my house. I need to talk to them about using the bladder containers.
Turtle
Veteran
Are you serious about Adelaide water? What on earth is in your water that can do that :O do people drink it???????
I have to trickle mine into bottles to prevent me getting sand and particles in it. I use that for washes now and use cheapie bottled bore hole water (for drinking) for the developer so I can be sure i dont get a load of iron particles causing marks as I have had before.
Another question would be the 18-29 degs C mixing temperature. what happens if one mixes it much warmer than this - does that destroy it? I wonder if some people have nailed their Xtol this way? I mixed up a batch pretty cold and then added some fairly hot water to raise the temperature and get better dissolution and it worked fine. The small amoutn I added to boost temp was prob about 50 degs, but mixing the whole lot at this temp might change the result somewhat...
I too test it regularly. I am doing a batch of 90 rolls from India and tested the batches after mixing to be sure. I was a bit so-so about 1+1 but the 1+2 does seem to have that little bit more bite and am getting some lovely looking negs on everything that has been thru it.
I suppose wobbly things can happen. I had no probs with Pyrocat HD for years...until the water company did some 'system overhaul' resulting in the most incredible streaking and swirls I have ever seen - looked like tie dyed negs :O
Freakscene
Obscure member
venchka - you should not store developer in the refrigerator - particularly Xtol. The dimezone-S can come out of solution and fail to re-dissolve when you heat it, killing it.
Turtle: completely serious. Adelaide water is currently perfectly drinkable, although it can taste moderately unpleasant. This stops many people from routinely consuming it without treatment (we have a filter at our house). The water supply complies with the Australian Drinking Water Guidelines, which are based on Australian/Zew Zealand Standard 4020 (equivalent to the international standard BS6920). It is, however, high in calcium, magnesium and iron. It is reasonably heavily chlorinated and can have relatively high organic dissolved carbon content. Unfortunately these ions and other compounds are exactly what you do not want in your Xtol, although ions in water are good for you, health-wise.
Our water source, the Murray River, is in a sad state. Adelaide's drinking water is predicted to exceed World Health Organisation guidelines for salinity on two days out of five by the year 2020.
There is a report on Adelaide's water quality here:
http://tinyurl.com/6zx6gl
I recommend testing for standardisation of all processes, particularly with valuable negs, as yours from India would be.
I haven't tested heat or hot water and am not sure what it would do to the developer.
Marty
Turtle: completely serious. Adelaide water is currently perfectly drinkable, although it can taste moderately unpleasant. This stops many people from routinely consuming it without treatment (we have a filter at our house). The water supply complies with the Australian Drinking Water Guidelines, which are based on Australian/Zew Zealand Standard 4020 (equivalent to the international standard BS6920). It is, however, high in calcium, magnesium and iron. It is reasonably heavily chlorinated and can have relatively high organic dissolved carbon content. Unfortunately these ions and other compounds are exactly what you do not want in your Xtol, although ions in water are good for you, health-wise.
Our water source, the Murray River, is in a sad state. Adelaide's drinking water is predicted to exceed World Health Organisation guidelines for salinity on two days out of five by the year 2020.
There is a report on Adelaide's water quality here:
http://tinyurl.com/6zx6gl
I recommend testing for standardisation of all processes, particularly with valuable negs, as yours from India would be.
I haven't tested heat or hot water and am not sure what it would do to the developer.
Marty
venchka
Veteran
Freakscene,
Thanks for the caution. Curiously, it hasn't happened so far. I'll remove it from the 'fridge tonight and see what happens in the coming weeks/months.
Thanks for the caution. Curiously, it hasn't happened so far. I'll remove it from the 'fridge tonight and see what happens in the coming weeks/months.
petecam
Newbie
Small bottles are the way to go!
Small bottles are the way to go!
For years I have been buying large quantiies of developer: 5 or 10 lites and then mixing them in total. I pour the contents into small brown glass bottles 250ml or 8 oz. and 500ml of 16 oz with liquid filled to the top to avoid any air at the lid. I find this storage last for 8-12 months and I have Dektol even longer. The advantage you have is instant stock solution without have to mix from scratch. You also save money by buying large quatities of developer which are more cost effective. It's harder to find glass brown bottles these days but I found that drug stores can get similar size (250 & 500) in brown plastic bottles. Good mixing!
Small bottles are the way to go!
For years I have been buying large quantiies of developer: 5 or 10 lites and then mixing them in total. I pour the contents into small brown glass bottles 250ml or 8 oz. and 500ml of 16 oz with liquid filled to the top to avoid any air at the lid. I find this storage last for 8-12 months and I have Dektol even longer. The advantage you have is instant stock solution without have to mix from scratch. You also save money by buying large quatities of developer which are more cost effective. It's harder to find glass brown bottles these days but I found that drug stores can get similar size (250 & 500) in brown plastic bottles. Good mixing!