Merkin
For the Weekend
When I get back to the states, I think I am going to sell my Leica CL and my 50mm f/2.5 color skopar. With the proceeds, I am going to purchase one of the three following Medium format cameras:
1. A Rolleiflex of some description, either Tessar or Planar. The Planar would, of course, be preferable, but my now defunct Seagull had a Tessar copy, and I loved it, and a Rolleiflex with a Planar may be outside my budget.
2. A Mamiya 645 Super, Pro, or Pro TL. Part of me likes the idea of having a modern MF SLR, with a motor drive and a metering prism. Also, the f/1.9 normal length lens is the fastest available in the MF world, as far as I know. This kit would probably represent about the best value for money, but I do like 6x6 negs.
3. A Hasselblad 500c, with an a12 back, WLF, and 80mm Planar. The highest quality images I have ever produced were made with a loaner Hasselblad. I like the feel of them, but they are neither as convenient to handhold as the rollei, nor are they as advanced as the Mamiya.
What are your thoughts about and experiences with these three? Any recommendations? I have been pondering this off and on for a month or so now, and it still remains a three way tie in my mind.
1. A Rolleiflex of some description, either Tessar or Planar. The Planar would, of course, be preferable, but my now defunct Seagull had a Tessar copy, and I loved it, and a Rolleiflex with a Planar may be outside my budget.
2. A Mamiya 645 Super, Pro, or Pro TL. Part of me likes the idea of having a modern MF SLR, with a motor drive and a metering prism. Also, the f/1.9 normal length lens is the fastest available in the MF world, as far as I know. This kit would probably represent about the best value for money, but I do like 6x6 negs.
3. A Hasselblad 500c, with an a12 back, WLF, and 80mm Planar. The highest quality images I have ever produced were made with a loaner Hasselblad. I like the feel of them, but they are neither as convenient to handhold as the rollei, nor are they as advanced as the Mamiya.
What are your thoughts about and experiences with these three? Any recommendations? I have been pondering this off and on for a month or so now, and it still remains a three way tie in my mind.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
I couldn't do without my Hasselblad. For large portrait enlargements its the way to go. Most of the 'Blads-Zeiss glass I've worked with has excellent bokeh as well. Good luck.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I have a couple of Rolleis and a couple of Hassies. The cameras you listed really represent very different ways of seeing the world. Most restrictive=Rollei - one lens, that's it. Least restrictive = the Mamiaya. How do you see the world? Do you like squares or rectangles? Do you need stealth? Different focal lengths? Like a reversed view? Need a prism? Work with a tripod? In terms of image quality, the Rollei and the Hassie are equal. Choose the camera that fits your style the best.
If it were me, I'd get the Rollei, but for completely idiosyncratic reasons. They just look so cool.
Ben Marks
If it were me, I'd get the Rollei, but for completely idiosyncratic reasons. They just look so cool.
Ben Marks
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
If you like the square format, there is nothing to beat the Hasseblad.
snausages
Well-known
I have a Planar 2.8 Rollei and a Mamiya Pro kit. Both have produced wonderful images. With three lenses, the Mamiya is more versatile, and as you mentioned, a great value. It can shoot 32 frames of 200 film, 20 shots per roll more than the 120-restricted Rollei. And it has the ease of a meter and aperture priority shooting. And yet...I shoot more often with the Rollei. Simply because it feels better around my neck.
But, as Ben articulated really well, this all depends so much on how you want to use your camera and which of these cameras' quirks you want to embrace and run with.
Oh, and just to confuse you more, you might want to consider the Pentax 67. It offers the value of the Mamiya kit and has a line-up of fast lenses, but is easier to walk around with (I think) than a box/film-back design (Hassie/Mamiya 645). And it's pretty awesome having 6x7 negatives.
But, as Ben articulated really well, this all depends so much on how you want to use your camera and which of these cameras' quirks you want to embrace and run with.
Oh, and just to confuse you more, you might want to consider the Pentax 67. It offers the value of the Mamiya kit and has a line-up of fast lenses, but is easier to walk around with (I think) than a box/film-back design (Hassie/Mamiya 645). And it's pretty awesome having 6x7 negatives.
Livesteamer
Well-known
I've got a Rollei 3.5F, a basic Hasselblad 500C outfit and a Pentax 6x7. The Rollei is very nice and so is the Pentax altho my Pentax is big and eats batteries. I much prefer the Hasselblad. Perhaps you could borrow/rent some of these and see which feels best. Good Luck, Joe.
colker
Well-known
Rollei is light, simple.. a better camera for me. but you should buy whatever they tell you to. so Rolleis don't inflate their prices even more.:bang:
I can buy 2 hassleblads w/ the price of one well kept rollei F.
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Merkin
For the Weekend
Thanks for the responses, guys. I have shot with a hassie, I have shot with a rollei copy, and I have thoroughly fondled my cousin's mamiya, although i havent shot it. I also appreciate the suggestion of the Pentax 67, although i have handled one, and it isn't for me. With MF, i do a combination of handheld and tripod shooting. Of the three, the hassie seems the most awkward to handhold, the rollei the easiest, and the mamiya in the middle. For tripod work, I like the hassie the best and the rollei the least, although I don't really mind using a tlr on a tripod. The mamiya tends to end up, for me, in the middle between the two in every situation. If the mamiya was 6x6, it wouldn't even be a question, but I do prefer square negs, if for no other reason than greater flexibility, although I do like printing squares as well.
Here is a new question: Rollei users: how often do you find yourself frustrated when using the camera on a tripod? Hassy users: how often do you find yourself frustrated when handholding? Mamiya users: how often do you find yourself frustrated with the smaller neg, or just frustrated in general? Also, is it true that the mamiyas wear out quickly when you use the motor drive all the time? If I cant use the motor drive all the time, the Mamiya is out.
Here is a new question: Rollei users: how often do you find yourself frustrated when using the camera on a tripod? Hassy users: how often do you find yourself frustrated when handholding? Mamiya users: how often do you find yourself frustrated with the smaller neg, or just frustrated in general? Also, is it true that the mamiyas wear out quickly when you use the motor drive all the time? If I cant use the motor drive all the time, the Mamiya is out.
ItsReallyDarren
That's really me
I use a Mamiya M645 every now and then. It's the first thing I reach for when I want a light medium format camera. With a waistlevel finder the setup is very light and very portable. I found it much easier to hold because the entire body comfortably fits in my hand grip, I sometimes carry it in my hand while walking around and the size/weight never really bothered me. I've never been frustrated by the smaller negs from that camera, though I've never shot it with demanding expectations. It might help to think of it as a cropped 6x6 if you were to print over an entire 8x10 sheet in the darkroom.
Using slow films with low grain might give a 645 negative more options in terms of enlargement. I've made 8x10 prints from acros and its still hard to see any grain at all.
Using slow films with low grain might give a 645 negative more options in terms of enlargement. I've made 8x10 prints from acros and its still hard to see any grain at all.
kansas_parker
Established
ray*j*gun
Veteran
Consider a Mamiya RZ67. Its a tad bigger than the Hassy's but the lenses are the sharpest I have ever used on MF and they are a bargin. I have 2 TLR's and the difference between them and the SLR's is HUGE!!
ChrisN
Striving
Hassy user here: Probably 80% of my shooting is hand-held, since I discovered mirror slap is basically a non-issue at sensible speeds. I've become used to the odd placement of the shutter release, and am gradually learning to adopt the recommend technique (cradle the camera in left hand with index finger on the release; focus and wind with right hand). My biggest frustration is seeing the image on the ground glass in bright daylight. Apart from the bright daylight issue, I prefer the waist-level finder, but also have a chimney finder (excellent) and a prism finder (not extensively tested yet).
Attachments
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The only reason I stopped using Hasselblad was that art directors could be guaranteed to crop trannies wrong -- so I went to RB67. A Hasselblad + 80mm is however a much smaller, sweeter-handling package than a Hasselblad and anything else.
I never could stand TLRs -- a purely personal prejudice -- but Rolleis do feel comfortingly solid.
For real quality my favourite is 'baby' Linhofs: RF coupled for hand holding, ground glass & movements on the tripod. The 56x72mm format, enlarged 3x to 178x216mm, can be indistinguishable from a whole-plate contact print.
Tashi delek,
Roger
I never could stand TLRs -- a purely personal prejudice -- but Rolleis do feel comfortingly solid.
For real quality my favourite is 'baby' Linhofs: RF coupled for hand holding, ground glass & movements on the tripod. The 56x72mm format, enlarged 3x to 178x216mm, can be indistinguishable from a whole-plate contact print.
Tashi delek,
Roger
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
I've owned all three of those: 2.8F Planar>2.8GX; Mamiya 645AF then 645 Pro TL; Hasselblad 203FE>503CW>203FE.
In terms of handling and maneuverability, the Mamiyas were easily better than either the TLR or Hassy. The Hasselblad, for me, is better than the Rolleiflex. The Rolleiflex requires a sort of juggling act. You hold it with the right hand, focus with the left hand, release shutter with the right hand's finger, but then have to switch the camera to the left hand to wind it with the right hand. It's still a great camera, but i just never found it to work as 'good' as it looks.
I would suggest you choose based on what you want to shoot as much as anything else. If i were shooting fashion, i'd want the Mamiya. If i were shooting travel, i'd probably want the TLR, unless i needed other lenses. But, i think the best all-round solution is the Hasselblad, which is the one i still have. And, you may as well get a few backs for it - they're cheap at the moment. Get a 120 and a 220.... I hate having to change MF film on location.
Is there a reason you're not considering MF rangefinders? I have a Bronica RF645. It's wonderful. I considered 'moving up' to a Mamiya 7, but i really do like the way the Bronica is built, and its compact size.
In terms of handling and maneuverability, the Mamiyas were easily better than either the TLR or Hassy. The Hasselblad, for me, is better than the Rolleiflex. The Rolleiflex requires a sort of juggling act. You hold it with the right hand, focus with the left hand, release shutter with the right hand's finger, but then have to switch the camera to the left hand to wind it with the right hand. It's still a great camera, but i just never found it to work as 'good' as it looks.
I would suggest you choose based on what you want to shoot as much as anything else. If i were shooting fashion, i'd want the Mamiya. If i were shooting travel, i'd probably want the TLR, unless i needed other lenses. But, i think the best all-round solution is the Hasselblad, which is the one i still have. And, you may as well get a few backs for it - they're cheap at the moment. Get a 120 and a 220.... I hate having to change MF film on location.
Is there a reason you're not considering MF rangefinders? I have a Bronica RF645. It's wonderful. I considered 'moving up' to a Mamiya 7, but i really do like the way the Bronica is built, and its compact size.
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
Some other stuff:
If your three options are being considered because you want to use a waistlevel viewfinder... the Mamiya's is nice, and with the 80/1.9, it's bright and clear for focusing, but you're stuck with horizontals on the 6x4.5 format unless you want to do some very awkward handling maneuvers.
The motor drive on the manual focus 645 series is quite loud. Sounds like a shriek. If you have the Ovation network, there's a documentary of William Claxton called "Jazz Seen" — i think it's still airing. There's a sequence with Claxton using the (manual focus, i think) Mamiya, and you can hear it.
If you get a Hassy 503CW instead of the 500c, because you want to use the motor winder grip, be aware that IT is even louder and more obnoxious than the Mamiya 645.
I don't remember the sound of the 645AF, but i'm sure it wasn't that bad.
With those three options, metering is very different. The Mamiya has a nice built-in meter. A Rolleiflex can have a meter, but unless you bought one of the newer GX or FX models, it's not likely to be working or accurate except in simple situations. And, the Hassy 500-series needs a metered prism which changes weight and handling.
If you get a Rolleiflex, i strongly recommend you get a model with a user-replaceable screen. Then, get a Maxwell for it. I also recommend a Maxwell for Hasselblad, even if you have the modern Acute-Matte, but the difference isn't as significant as with an old Rolleiflex screen.
If your three options are being considered because you want to use a waistlevel viewfinder... the Mamiya's is nice, and with the 80/1.9, it's bright and clear for focusing, but you're stuck with horizontals on the 6x4.5 format unless you want to do some very awkward handling maneuvers.
The motor drive on the manual focus 645 series is quite loud. Sounds like a shriek. If you have the Ovation network, there's a documentary of William Claxton called "Jazz Seen" — i think it's still airing. There's a sequence with Claxton using the (manual focus, i think) Mamiya, and you can hear it.
If you get a Hassy 503CW instead of the 500c, because you want to use the motor winder grip, be aware that IT is even louder and more obnoxious than the Mamiya 645.
I don't remember the sound of the 645AF, but i'm sure it wasn't that bad.
With those three options, metering is very different. The Mamiya has a nice built-in meter. A Rolleiflex can have a meter, but unless you bought one of the newer GX or FX models, it's not likely to be working or accurate except in simple situations. And, the Hassy 500-series needs a metered prism which changes weight and handling.
If you get a Rolleiflex, i strongly recommend you get a model with a user-replaceable screen. Then, get a Maxwell for it. I also recommend a Maxwell for Hasselblad, even if you have the modern Acute-Matte, but the difference isn't as significant as with an old Rolleiflex screen.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I completely disagree with the first point -- I much prefer Hasselblad handling to Mamiya 645 (maybe because I learned on Hasselblads) -- but I completely agree with the second, which is why I dislike TLRs.
Also, my wife wore out a 645 in a few years of not-too-heavy use (back latch failing, counter not working, rough wind-on...) My 500C was well second-hand when I bought it in the early 80s. I then used it for a few years (?half a decade -- I forget) and sold it to another professional friend in the mid-to-late 80s. He continued to use it until he went digital.
Cheers,
R.
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urban_alchemist
Well-known
Being a 503CW owner and having just bought a 203FE on eBay (but I'm in Israel and it's waiting for me in London - doh!) what are your experiences with these two? Pros, cons and ideosyncracies?
And to the OP - I haven't tried any other than the Hassies, and I'm a sucker for that ridiculously over-engineered feel only Hassies and Leicas seem to have...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
And Rollei TLRs and Alpas and Linhofs and Robots and Tessinas and Hensoldt Reporters and (original) Contaxes and proper Minox sub-miniatures.
Tashi delek,
R.
Austerby
Well-known
I nearly have all three - a 500cm, a 645 Super and a Yashicamat TLR. I find all three very different.
The Mamiya is the most technologically advanced and by far the best value camera system I have - the image quality is amazingly good and the prices very low. It does disappoint me with the quality of the camera itself - it is plastic, clunky and loud. I have the power winder but don't use it as it is so noisy and eats batteries. The grip is improved with it but I prefer to use it with the manual winder. I don't know how the Pro or ProTL compare.
The Hasselblad is majestic and wonderful and faultless, I adore it. I only have two lenses for it - the 80mm and now the 50mm Distagon. I was somewhat surprised by how the weight of the 50mm changes the balance of the camera - it really is so much better with the lighter 80mm, so much so that I have considered selling it to get a Rolleiflex - if you're going to use the one lens then why have an SLR? Haven't done it yet and probably won't.
The Yashica I've had from new, but in the twenty odd year of ownership it hasn't had that much use really, which does indicate something to me. I'm sure it's similar to the Rolleiflex and your Seagull.
In summary, you won't go wrong with any of the choices - so I've probably not helped you at all!
The Mamiya is the most technologically advanced and by far the best value camera system I have - the image quality is amazingly good and the prices very low. It does disappoint me with the quality of the camera itself - it is plastic, clunky and loud. I have the power winder but don't use it as it is so noisy and eats batteries. The grip is improved with it but I prefer to use it with the manual winder. I don't know how the Pro or ProTL compare.
The Hasselblad is majestic and wonderful and faultless, I adore it. I only have two lenses for it - the 80mm and now the 50mm Distagon. I was somewhat surprised by how the weight of the 50mm changes the balance of the camera - it really is so much better with the lighter 80mm, so much so that I have considered selling it to get a Rolleiflex - if you're going to use the one lens then why have an SLR? Haven't done it yet and probably won't.
The Yashica I've had from new, but in the twenty odd year of ownership it hasn't had that much use really, which does indicate something to me. I'm sure it's similar to the Rolleiflex and your Seagull.
In summary, you won't go wrong with any of the choices - so I've probably not helped you at all!
jke
Well-known
I think Hasselblad lenses are the medium format match to Leica lenses in terms of detail, contrast and out-of-focus quality. If you get one, save yourself some headaches with shutter/lens jams and get a good one (which may not mean a perfect-looking Hasselblad necessarily.)
Rolleiflexes are not expensive Yashica TLRs. The lenses are different, better and in the later 3.5 and 2.8 versions, approach if not equal Hasselblad lenses in an easier to manage package. The bodies are heavier duty cast metal and the automat feature works very well. Even the lenses in the early ones are lovely, though they have a different, perhaps less clinical, look from the later cameras.
I've looked at Mamiya 645 cameras, but I've never used one. I've always figured that if I am going to deal with 120 film, then I am going to use the largest negative possible. That doesn't mean that you will share my sense of things. As you say, they can be had these days for pretty stinkin' good deals.
But to throw you a curve, consider instead one of the Mamiya 7 rangefinder medium format cameras. If you shoot Leica, the rangefinder will make instant sense. You won't be switching between looking down and looking foward, looking at a ground glass and looking through a viewfinder. Seems like a small thing but there is a perceptual shift that occurs. The Mamiya RF cameras do not have the same long-range durability as the Hassy or the Rollei, but that doesn't mean they aren't durable. And if you shop around, you can find decently priced lightly used versions. I would suggest the 65mm lens as a one lens-one camera walk-around choice.
Rolleiflexes are not expensive Yashica TLRs. The lenses are different, better and in the later 3.5 and 2.8 versions, approach if not equal Hasselblad lenses in an easier to manage package. The bodies are heavier duty cast metal and the automat feature works very well. Even the lenses in the early ones are lovely, though they have a different, perhaps less clinical, look from the later cameras.
I've looked at Mamiya 645 cameras, but I've never used one. I've always figured that if I am going to deal with 120 film, then I am going to use the largest negative possible. That doesn't mean that you will share my sense of things. As you say, they can be had these days for pretty stinkin' good deals.
But to throw you a curve, consider instead one of the Mamiya 7 rangefinder medium format cameras. If you shoot Leica, the rangefinder will make instant sense. You won't be switching between looking down and looking foward, looking at a ground glass and looking through a viewfinder. Seems like a small thing but there is a perceptual shift that occurs. The Mamiya RF cameras do not have the same long-range durability as the Hassy or the Rollei, but that doesn't mean they aren't durable. And if you shop around, you can find decently priced lightly used versions. I would suggest the 65mm lens as a one lens-one camera walk-around choice.
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