you are not a photographer

[KM-25]

I am not saying his way is the right way, but it does put a spotlight on what is really wrong in photography today, the fact that what the general public thinks is a good photograph is changing because of the online "Great Capture" clubs. Let's not even talk about the loss of jobs for otherwise talented and driven shooters, let's talk about the loss of the value of a photograph bearing witness to the triumphs and tragedies of our lives, the brilliant narrative pre-digital and pre-Internet that changed the course of individuals, societies and the world for that matter, regardless of genre.

This goes so far beyond photography too, the value of everything in a moral scope being reduced to utter commentary based chaos....

And like it or not, it is just one more site or Internet attitude that is free to roam and slander on the net just like any other hobby, political or other forum for that matter, this is nothing new. Have you ever taken the time to actually read the comments below the news stories on Yahoo....?.....pretty disgusting if not downright scary.

This is the way the world works now, the Internet being in my opinion, the single most destructive tool of society I have ever come to witness. People have been murdered because of it, committed suicide over it and millions of jobs and personal income lost because of it. For all the good that the Internet does in bringing us in touch with more people.....just how in touch are we?

I am not condoning what this person is doing, but I am asking when is the "Emperor's New Clothes" effect within online communities going to stop......?......if ever???

It is simply not good for the arts and not good for anyone for that matter...

Whoever this person is, they have NO RIGHT to attack innocent people and their work. People doing poor work is nothing new. It's been happening since the beginning of time. Only now, because of digital, its been multiplied.

If people are willing to pay peanuts out there, they will get monkeys. I know of many so called 'photographers' shooting for over 30 years and they're still bad. So newbies don't scare me, even though I know it is affecting the industry. Even last night as house photographer, i still had to deal with 4 other 'photographers' who had no idea what to do in a concert pit. But I did my job like a professional, without worrying about how they were affecting my life. They even got in my way, but I knew there was nothing I could do about it.

My experience or position in the industry gives me ZERO superiority over them. If they have a pass they are just as entitled as I am to be there, and I'm not going to pick out random innocent people to bash because I have trouble with my own insecurities. It's important that we all think about 3 key things:

1. Why is the author doing this? What is his motivation? - it could only be envy and insecurity.
2. What is to gain from taking such negative action? - happiness from putting others down.
3. What effect could it possibly have on the industry? - it won't put more money in his/her pocket. The uprising of professionals (think Terminator) will never happen.

.....because this is what it's all about- MONEY! If the photographer cared about the 'art' then he would not waste his time on such a pointless negative exercise. Instead he'd be smart and go spend time marketing himself, and improving his own skills. I take it, this person isn't HCB. Its sad that it has supporters, but this is a pretty screwed up world right now, and sad people will take any opportunity to jump on such a bandwagon of negativity and hatred.

 

[leicashot]

All that is lacking is EDUCATION. The internet has propelled people into the future too quickly with the ease of accessing information. These people with the new found passion for photography need to be educated, not humiliated.

These people being targeted, many of which 'are' contributing to the destruction of the industry should not be humiliated in this way. There is NO PROOF that these individuals are guilty. The ONLY guilty party is the author attacking them and their work, randomly and contributing to the horrid state of the internet, and this can only lead to all the negative effects you just stated.

What people are gaining by supporting this won't make their pictures any better, and nor will it help with the state of the photography industry as a profession. There is no 'black & white' (pardon...) when it comes to a good photography. A good photograph is a picture that brings enjoyment, and no one has the right to judge this openly, negatively one-sided in an open forum, no one.

- This site is not messing with people's pictures, it's messing with people's lives.

I am not saying his way is the right way, but it does put a spotlight on what is really wrong in photography today, the fact that what the general public thinks is a good photograph is changing because of the online "Great Capture" clubs. Let's not even talk about the loss of jobs for otherwise talented and driven shooters, let's talk about the loss of the value of a photograph bearing witness to the triumphs and tragedies of our lives, the brilliant narrative pre-digital and pre-Internet that changed the course of individuals, societies and the world for that matter, regardless of genre.

This goes so far beyond photography too, the value of everything in a moral scope being reduced to utter commentary based chaos....

And like it or not, it is just one more site or Internet attitude that is free to roam and slander on the net just like any other hobby, political or other forum for that matter, this is nothing new. Have you ever taken the time to actually read the comments below the news stories on Yahoo....?.....pretty disgusting if not downright scary.

This is the way the world works now, the Internet being in my opinion, the single most destructive tool of society I have ever come to witness. People have been murdered because of it, committed suicide over it and millions of jobs and personal income lost because of it. For all the good that the Internet does in bringing us in touch with more people.....just how in touch are we?

I am not condoning what this person is doing, but I am asking when is the "Emperor's New Clothes" effect within online communities going to stop......?......if ever???

It is simply not good for the arts and not good for anyone for that matter...

 

[wgerrard]

...despite the technology, web platforms for viewing images, etc, there is just TONS of garbage photography out there when one compares it to good imagery made not only now, but many decades ago.

Most photos have always been junk. Unless we were related to the photographer, we just couldn't see them. It's easy to publish on the web. So people do.

Only a very tiny fraction of the human race think photography is an art. For everyone else it is just a way of taking pictures.

I don't care if my photos are 'art'. I like taking pictures. I like to look at them. If someone thinks the purpose of photography is to produce art, they won't have much to look at.

 

[Colin Corneau]

The site was a lark, a bit of a sarcastic swipe at what most photographers can agree is an epidemic of do-it-yourselfers who not only do awful work but make life that much harder for talented professionals.

I'll say it again: It. Was. A. Lark.

The wheezing and "whither decency..?" bloviating is kind of hilarious but grows sad a lot more quickly than that site does.
Come on folks, it was meant as a bit of junk food...have a laugh for a minute, and then move on.

 

[KM-25]

What the online world of photography needs....desperately, is a place that gives real critique. Where respected people in the art and photo world can come and be guests and give truly valuable input and not fear backlash.

This would be a place to post photographs without ANY discussion of gear, with clearly defined areas or genres, IE, no photoshop allowed, just your straight out of camera shot, for art or PJ sake with perhaps a CGI area for that kind of art.

This would be a place that in order to even get in, like a top notch workshop or school, you would need a portfolio review. If a photographer wants to become better, he or she will generally forgo the great capture clubs as many do who are serious. But in order to educate people like you have stated, there has to be a new way of showing work and getting real critique. Frankly I am very surprised that a place like ICP or other well respected institutions have not engaged in this. By not doing so, they are running the risk of losing enrollment.

Burn Magazine is about the only place I know that is combating mediocrity in the photography world. I am disappointed that the most popular places to post photos are places that lack any real education or critique.

For the record, RFF has better photography than most compared to other online forums, but it is still a gear centric place so I can only take so much of it too before I have to come up for air.

Kristian, how do we educate people who are utterly addicted to hearing nothing but great capture and would fall into a dark space if they were to hear the truth? We can't force this education on these people who want to think they are good no matter what...

I think we are too late, the effects of Flickr, Facebook, etc are unstoppable at this point...

All that is lacking is EDUCATION. The internet has propelled people into the future too quickly with the ease of accessing information. These people with the new found passion for photography need to be educated, not humiliated.

These people being targeted, many of which 'are' contributing to the destruction of the industry should not be humiliated in this way. There is NO PROOF that these individuals are guilty. The ONLY guilty party is the author attacking them and their work, randomly and contributing to the horrid state of the internet, and this can only lead to all the negative effects you just stated.

What people are gaining by supporting this won't make their pictures any better, and nor will it help with the state of the photography industry as a profession. There is no 'black & white' (pardon...) when it comes to a good photography. A good photograph is a picture that brings enjoyment, and no one has the right to judge this openly, negatively one-sided in an open forum, no one.

- This site is not messing with people's pictures, it's messing with people's lives.

 

[jack palmer]

I don't get what everyone is so upset about.This website exposes these"professional photographers" for peddling junk and some think it could use a little "buttering over" or they just need to be educated ? I say they need another line of work. It's not even really funny it's just pathetic. And who cares what the bloggers photos look like as if that's a criteria for recognizing and posting below average work.

 

[jan normandale]

"blah blah I'm good and you're not..." I heard this in the school yard years ago

"blah blah I'm good and you're not..." I heard this in the school yard years ago

I think that the site is a commercial site to sell advertising for commercial sites like Walmart and to sell their logo'd T-shirts, and coffee mugs. My guess is the whole thing is just a marketing ploy using feeds and encouraging people to send in links to bad photography. Maybe these guys need money for SD cards or something. Who knows?

I couldn't even get interested in reading it. It's going to wither away. It's a one trick pony and it's incredibly boring. I'm not even interested in seeing their original work. Meh

later

 

[Tompas]

Whoever this person is, they have NO RIGHT to attack innocent people and their work. (...)

I disagree. Anything that's published may be criticized, harshly criticized, even ridiculed. It's been done since publication itself was invented, and rightly so. And I've seen nothing that I'd call an 'attack' (but I haven't seen/read the whole site, just the first 2 pages, or so).

I wonder why this site gets so lively discussed here. I found it boring very quickly.

 

[KM-25]

I just read that whole article, the second paragraph really says it all.

But wow, I had no idea that happened to Jay, it does explain why he dropped off of my list on Facebook for a spell.

I am not saying his way is the right way, but it does put a spotlight on what is really wrong in photography today, the fact that what the general public thinks is a good photograph is changing because of the online "Great Capture" clubs..Snip

Begin Quote

A few years ago somebody played a cruel joke on Flickr’s DeleteMe group, where a photo is posted and self-appointed critics decide whether to keep or trash the image. A picture of a cyclist was posted and condemnation was quick. “Soft”, “grey”, “blurry” were among the criticisms as the judges decided the picture was, well, a bit crap. Then it was revealed that the photographer was Henri Cartier-Bresson.

End Quote

Citation: http://www.jeremynicholl.com/blog/2...rapher-jay-maisel-in-andy-baio-copyright-row/

 

[KM-25]

I think that the site is a commercial site to sell advertising for commercial sites like Walmart and to sell their logo'd T-shirts, and coffee mugs./QUOTE]

I have to confess, I am thinking about getting a couple of the bumper stickers for my snowboards....;-)

 

[gb hill]

What about the client! It's the client who hires the photographer. Everyone knows of the client who wants to hire the photographer to shoot their wedding for $100 bucks...or less.🙄

 

[Frank Petronio]

Clients get the photographer they deserve....

It's a boring site, not against the idea of calling out bad photographers but a one page scroll of shame would serve better... unless you want to make $37.12 per year from all those crappy inline ads.

 

[Ranchu]

But....the good news is that out in the real world, at the picture desks of great publications and ad agencies, well these people don't care what the "Great Capture" club says is a great photo, they know better and act accordingly.

I don't look at the photos on Flickr, Pbase or even here much, I am usually mostly disappointed that I took the time. I go to all the places I went before the digital junk show went on tour. I LIVE a different life behind the camera than many do, I talk to art directors, photo editors in person every day and we are all dumbfounded how bad the online photo communities are and amateurs just buy right into it all, the gear talk, the so called business models, etc. So I hang out into the wind and put it out there like no one else.

Yeah, um.

The milieu you're describing is also a 'great capture club'. No different, and no better. AD's copy whatever the shtick of the month is just the same as those you're criticizing. I'd rather look at flickr than communication arts any day, because commercial work is so. ****ing. boring. There's more good work done for free in the world than is paid. But happy cheerleading for your little team there.

 

[emraphoto]

The site was a lark, a bit of a sarcastic swipe at what most photographers can agree is an epidemic of do-it-yourselfers who not only do awful work but make life that much harder for talented professionals.

I'll say it again: It. Was. A. Lark.

The wheezing and "whither decency..?" bloviating is kind of hilarious but grows sad a lot more quickly than that site does.
Come on folks, it was meant as a bit of junk food...have a laugh for a minute, and then move on.

phew! i thought i was the only one

 

[emraphoto]

Whoever this person is, they have NO RIGHT to attack innocent people and their work. People doing poor work is nothing new. It's been happening since the beginning of time. Only now, because of digital, its been multiplied.

If people are willing to pay peanuts out there, they will get monkeys. I know of many so called 'photographers' shooting for over 30 years and they're still bad. So newbies don't scare me, even though I know it is affecting the industry. Even last night as house photographer, i still had to deal with 4 other 'photographers' who had no idea what to do in a concert pit. But I did my job like a professional, without worrying about how they were affecting my life. They even got in my way, but I knew there was nothing I could do about it.

My experience or position in the industry gives me ZERO superiority over them. If they have a pass they are just as entitled as I am to be there, and I'm not going to pick out random innocent people to bash because I have trouble with my own insecurities. It's important that we all think about 3 key things:

1. Why is the author doing this? What is his motivation? - it could only be envy and insecurity.
2. What is to gain from taking such negative action? - happiness from putting others down.
3. What effect could it possibly have on the industry? - it won't put more money in his/her pocket. The uprising of professionals (think Terminator) will never happen.

.....because this is what it's all about- MONEY! If the photographer cared about the 'art' then he would not waste his time on such a pointless negative exercise. Instead he'd be smart and go spend time marketing himself, and improving his own skills. I take it, this person isn't HCB. Its sad that it has supporters, but this is a pretty screwed up world right now, and sad people will take any opportunity to jump on such a bandwagon of negativity and hatred.

> So I ask to those who support this site, ask yourself those 3 questions and see if you have answers that are of any positive substance.

The last I checked photography was not a competition based on negative judgmental behavior. This industry like any other is based on 'who know you' and more importantly, 'who knows you'. The best photographers will never be the most rewarded with work unless they are known. This kind of situation is universal, and the effects of this should NOT be taken out in a negative way on random amateurs trying to enjoy the passion we all love. Do those people who started photography with film believe they are superior than those starting with digital? If so, shame on them. Being born first in the film era doesn't make you better.

Lastly until there is hard proof its important to not name any names because we'll just be doing what the website is right now. The best thing we can do is stop talking about it, not share it with friends and let this pointless site disappear peacefully.

what if it made me laugh? i mean the images posted. i didn't venture much into the comments.

the baby growing out of the tree? i mean damn, that was funny.

 

[Ranchu]

The difference between CA and Flicker is editing. I agree that CA is stacked with AIGA members and they likely show favor to those they work with.

No, I don't think so, the difference is intent. The units KM-25 boasts about are shooting to please their client, or get clients, maybe a little sliver of themselves creeps in, if such exists anymore. Most people on flickr are shooting simply because it fascinates them. That is a fundamental difference, and I know which photos I'd rather look at, no membership required...

http://www.flickr.com/groups/homesick_alien/pool/with/5923217856/

...

http://www.flickr.com/groups/hellotelevision/pool/with/5377944259/

 

[gavinlg]

what if it made me laugh? i mean the images posted. i didn't venture much into the comments.

the baby growing out of the tree? i mean damn, that was funny.

That made you laugh? I must be soft - I felt like it would give me nightmares!

 

[Ranchu]

It's a beautiful thing when an ent baby is born, guys. I got a little verklempt, I'm not ashamed to say.

 

[KM-25]

Boasting? No, and I shoot only for my self, not for clients, maybe I would have more work if I did shoot for clients.

Luckily, I have clients who either buy my work, hire me for my commercial or editorial style, which is editorial across the board I guess. But either way, they know I shoot for my self and they like it that way. I think one of the most entertaining things people who are not full time pros like to do is claim they have more fun than a pro does, like it is more pure or something. When in reality, some pros have struck a wonderful balance of getting to do any kind of photography they want, any time they want, because they have their priorities straight, are more live in the moment driven than retirement driven and have simply bought more of their time back by not squandering it on making as much money as they can.

There is a lot of attitude these days in the photo world, it is just different when you go hang out at a festival, take a workshop or go hang with your lens toting bros than it is on a site that is flooded with everything. The difference being that on a site like Flickr, there are lot less Great Captures there than any of the places I go to see good work.

No, I don't think so, the difference is intent. The units KM-25 boasts about are shooting to please their client, or get clients, maybe a little sliver of themselves creeps in, if such exists anymore. Most people on flickr are shooting simply because it fascinates them. That is a fundamental difference, and I know which photos I'd rather look at, no membership required...

http://www.flickr.com/groups/homesick_alien/pool/with/5923217856/

...

http://www.flickr.com/groups/hellotelevision/pool/with/5377944259/

 

[Ranchu]

Boasting? No, and I shoot only for my self, not for clients, maybe I would have more work if I did shoot for clients.

Luckily, I have clients who either buy my work, hire me for my commercial or editorial style, which is editorial across the board I guess.

There is a lot of attitude these days in the photo world, it is just different when you go hang out at a festival, take a workshop or go hang with your lens toting bros than it is on a site that is flooded with everything. The difference being that on a site like Flickr, there are lot less Great Captures there than any of the places I go to see good work.

That's because they let everyone post on flickr. I like to see what people choose for themselves, rather than have a middleman predigest it for me. Middlemen put out a ton of ****, it's axiomatic. I'm sure you've seen tons of work hyped at you from authoritative sources that just wasn't all that much of anything, really. I could even say most work hyped at you sucks. I think there's been an increase in that occurring at least as large as the increase in creativity by people who don't necessarily have a knack for it. Mocking people like the site posted does, is just snotty classist bs from people desperate to stay in the club, same old, same old.