Your manual camera is really shutter priority! Electros - best cameras EVER?

[NickTrop]

Cameras (analog, film) come in three flavors.
1. Shutter priority (most all fixed lens RFs)
2. Aperture priority (Just the Electros and one of the Minolta RFs)
3. Manual

Often I hear on threads people dislike the Electros because "there's no manual control". Here's what I pose to you.

Your "manual camera" - if it has a coupled built-in light meter, for all intents and purposes, is really a shutter priority camera.

Do you really, really ever futz with the shutter speed dial rotating it in its position, probably right next to the film advance, to match the shutter speed to a particular aperture you want to shoot?

I'll answer for you - no, you never do. It's possible, but it's slow, cumbersome, awkward. Such cameras - most cameras, simply weren't designed to work this way. (It's actually less cumbersome to +/- the film speed setting when you want an extra stop or stop down!)

No - you set the shutter speed and rotate the aperture on the lens. 99.99-100% of the time. Therefore, your "manual camera" is really a shutter priority camera because that's how you use it. And because it's really a "shutter priority" camera - and this includes Leicas, every time you shoot you make a compromise. You set the shutter speed to - whatever works for the light, and match the aperture to that setting. Therefore every picture you take is probably a compromise that effects your final image quality. The aperture indicator floats around, and "rounds up or down" and is a "surprise" in the end. You've lost creative control of the most important aspect of how the lens will paint the image. Sure, you can rotate the shutter speed setting - forget it if you try and your subjects are human or your trying to capture the "decisive moment". That happened a minute ago before you - through trial and error, having to pull your eye away from the camera to reset the shutter setting so it gives you the aperture you want.

Like that candid? Want to blur the background more? Wish you could have shot it at f4 instead of f5.6 but you would have missed the shot if you pulled the camera away from your eye to increase the shutter speed. Forget the shot. So you "accept" f5.6 and its higher DOF.

Just one example.

Your "manual camera" is really a shutter priority camera. Hate to break it to you.

In conclusion, taking all things into consideration, the Yashica Electro series is the best 35mm film camera ever made. Only the Electro series by Yashica give you 100% creative control over most images. You set the aperture on the lens barrel. It's the aperture and the apeture f-stop alone that determines how the lens paints the image - its DOF, its bokeh. Shutter speed does not really matter for 90% of shooting situations that RFs excel at and were designed for. Your "manual camera" is really a shutter priority camera. This includes SLRs and modern Leicas. You set Yashica or any aperture, which determines the aesthetic qualities of the image, not shutter speed, and it sets the typically unimportant shutter speed - stepless, in "infinate" intervals. There are no shutter "stops", so in conjunction with its excellent metering capabilities , it renders "perfectly" exposed images. It lighing calls for a shutter speed of 1/78 a second - you got it. Perfect. Not 1/60, not 1/125 like your "shutter priority" manual camera or your shutter priority camera. You set aperture and shoot instantly, with a silent shutter thats right up there with Leicas and Hexars.

Combine this with a parrallax-corrected viewfinder, a lens that might not beat a Cron in a lens test, but for all intents and purposes is just as good, an amazing ability to meter an shoot at shutter speeds over 30 seconds for low light still life and low light effects photography if the camera is tripod-mounted that is unique and unmatched in any other camera.

The Electros are the best cameras ever made because they are the only "pure" aperture priority cameras, as such give the photographer instant control over what matters most - the aperture setting, in conjunction with a stepless shutter. Your "manual camera" is inferiour to this system because it's really a shutter priority camera.

Oh - and "PS", only the Lynx series - with both aperture and shutter speed on the actual lens barrel, it the true "all manual" camera that I'm aware of... But that's a post for another day.

 

[rogue_designer]

While I see what you're getting at. I do adjust the shutter speed after setting the aperture I want.

But then, I don't have a meter in the camera. So perhaps, I'm not included.

 

[Morca007]

I can't decide if this is supposed to be humorous or not...

I adjust my shutter speed to allow me to use the F-stop I want quite often.

EDIT: And there's the small matter that shutter speed also plays a role in the aesthetics of a photograph.

 

[aad]

Um, no. I always select an aperture first, really. But I'm weird.

Miranda Sensorex has the easiest shutter control of any camera, easier than the aperture. I pretty much never use that camera, though.

 

[NickTrop]

While I see what you're getting at. I do adjust the shutter speed after setting the aperture I want.

But then, I don't have a meter in the camera. So perhaps, I'm not included.

Buried in the post, I am referring to cameras with coupled meters. I'm not refering to cameras with no meters.

 

[NickTrop]

Betchya 99% of users, if they're honest, use their coupled meter "manual" cameras exactly as if they're shutter priority cameras.

 

[bmattock]

That's a strange rant.

Most of my fixed-lens rangefinders don't have meters - period. Those that do, allow for full manual adjustment, with the exceptions of my XA and Electros. The XA is aperture priority AE, and the Electros, as you say, are shutter priority AE.

And all of them - thinking about it now, hmmmm - have the aperture adjustment (if they have one) right on the lens with the shutter speed adjustment (if they have one) with the Oly RC as about the only exception I can think of right now.

My SLRs have the dials as you say. And I adjust the shutter speed to get proper exposure on the aperture I prefer.

I actually HATE shutter-priority AE unless I have no other choice. Shutter speed to me is less important than aperture, unless I am street shooting and forced to make decisions regarding movement of people and things. A recent ballroom dancing competition made me select for a minimum shutter speed of 1/125 to 1/90 or so, and adjust the ISO (dSLR, sorry) and aperture to match that. But usually, I prefer to shoot with as open an aperture as I can, unless I'm shooting an air show or something, when I want f/8 mostly.

Anyway, most of my fixed-lens rangefinders are built more or less just like the Lynx you mentioned (which I also have). Shutter speed and aperture on the barrel. It's actually easier for manufacturers who used leaf shutters to make them that way. Even my gigantic Fuji G690.

 

[NickTrop]

I can't decide if this is supposed to be humorous or not...

I adjust my shutter speed to allow me to use the F-stop I want quite often.

EDIT: And there's the small matter that shutter speed also plays a role in the aesthetics of a photograph.

Yes - but not nearly to the extent of the aperture in most situations. For most RF-style shooting, on the fly, hand-held, human subjects in particular, its a given aperture you're looking for. You probably just care that the SS is above 1/30 to avoid excessive motion blur and camera shake.

 

[bmattock]

Betchya 99% of users, if they're honest, use their coupled meter "manual" cameras exactly as if they're shutter priority cameras.

What do you mean by coupled meter? I tend not to use the internal meter at all in any vintage camera - even if it has one and it works. Most of mine have empty battery chambers - I use an external meter and am very satisfied with that. I have a few - such as the Oly RC that have an internal meter I trust. Still, I tend to adjust shutter speed to match the aperture I choose.

 

[Keith]

Electro best 35mm camera ever made ... that's a bold claim!

Hard to disagree with in some aspects though.

 

[NickTrop]

Not really a strange rant - I don't think.

A. I'm talking about cameras with coupled light meters. Most cameras - film/35mm.

B. Most cameras that have manual capabilities that are of this type (built-in meters) are used exclusively as shutter priority by their users. An SLR. You set shutter speed, varying it only if there's not enough light, too much light. You accept whatever aperture the camera gives you, you shoot.

C. If you wanted to shoot at F4, but your shutter speed it too high/too low, it takes too long to re-set the shutter speed up or down to get that particular aperture. The moment is lost. Doesn't matter so much if it's a still life or a landscape. I'm talking RF-style photography. Candids, available light, decisive moments.

D. If I want to shoot at F4 - instantly, so's not to lose the moment, not care about the shutter, I set it at F4 and shoot - instantly. I get the bokeh or DOF I want, the image characteristics I want instantly, at exactly the aperture I want. The scene is perfectly metered in fractions of stops because of its stepless shutter. More bokeh? F2.9, F2 - whatever. Greater DOF? F8. I do this instantly. The camera perfectly adjusts the stepless shutter in fractions of stops much faster and much less cumbersome as to be impracticle with "manual cameras" - which by their design, are functionally shutter priority cameras.

Think about it...

 

[Morca007]

I don't know how to say this more strongly; You are wrong.
It takes very, very little time to adjust shutter speed, about the same as aperture. For most, if not all, of my photographs, I consider both, and adjust accordingly. As long as I have a general EI dialed in for the lighting of a scene, I know that I can adjust to whatever Aperture I want, and I simply have to move a corresponding number of shutter speeds.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Cameras (analog, film) come in three flavors.
1. Shutter priority (most all fixed lens RFs)
2. Aperture priority (Just the Electros and one of the Minolta RFs)
3. Manual

Often I hear on threads people dislike the Electros because "there's no manual control". Here's what I pose to you.

Your "manual camera" - if it has a coupled built-in light meter, for all intents and purposes, is really a shutter priority camera.

Do you really, really ever futz with the shutter speed dial rotating it in its position, probably right next to the film advance, to match the shutter speed to a particular aperture you want to shoot?

I'll answer for you - no, you never do. It's possible, but it's slow, cumbersome, awkward. Such cameras - most cameras, simply weren't designed to work this way. (It's actually less cumbersome to +/- the film speed setting when you want an extra stop or stop down!)

No - you set the shutter speed and rotate the aperture on the lens. 99.99-100% of the time. Therefore, your "manual camera" is really a shutter priority camera because that's how you use it. And because it's really a "shutter priority" camera - and this includes Leicas, every time you shoot you make a compromise. You set the shutter speed to - whatever works for the light, and match the aperture to that setting. Therefore every picture you take is probably a compromise that effects your final image quality. The aperture indicator floats around, and "rounds up or down" and is a "surprise" in the end. You've lost creative control of the most important aspect of how the lens will paint the image. Sure, you can rotate the shutter speed setting - forget it if you try and your subjects are human or your trying to capture the "decisive moment". That happened a minute ago before you - through trial and error, having to pull your eye away from the camera to reset the shutter setting so it gives you the aperture you want.

Like that candid? Want to blur the background more? Wish you could have shot it at f4 instead of f5.6 but you would have missed the shot if you pulled the camera away from your eye to increase the shutter speed. Forget the shot. So you "accept" f5.6 and its higher DOF.

Just one example.

Your "manual camera" is really a shutter priority camera. Hate to break it to you.

In conclusion, taking all things into consideration, the Yashica Electro series is the best 35mm film camera ever made. Only the Electro series by Yashica give you 100% creative control over most images. You set the aperture on the lens barrel. It's the aperture and the apeture f-stop alone that determines how the lens paints the image - its DOF, its bokeh. Shutter speed does not really matter for 90% of shooting situations that RFs excel at and were designed for. Your "manual camera" is really a shutter priority camera. This includes SLRs and modern Leicas. You set Yashica or any aperture, which determines the aesthetic qualities of the image, not shutter speed, and it sets the typically unimportant shutter speed - stepless, in "infinate" intervals. There are no shutter "stops", so in conjunction with its excellent metering capabilities , it renders "perfectly" exposed images. It lighing calls for a shutter speed of 1/78 a second - you got it. Perfect. Not 1/60, not 1/125 like your "shutter priority" manual camera or your shutter priority camera. You set aperture and shoot instantly, with a silent shutter thats right up there with Leicas and Hexars.

Combine this with a parrallax-corrected viewfinder, a lens that might not beat a Cron in a lens test, but for all intents and purposes is just as good, an amazing ability to meter an shoot at shutter speeds over 30 seconds for low light still life and low light effects photography if the camera is tripod-mounted that is unique and unmatched in any other camera.

The Electros are the best cameras ever made because they are the only "pure" aperture priority cameras, as such give the photographer instant control over what matters most - the aperture setting, in conjunction with a stepless shutter. Your "manual camera" is inferiour to this system because it's really a shutter priority camera.

Oh - and "PS", only the Lynx series - with both aperture and shutter speed on the actual lens barrel, it the true "all manual" camera that I'm aware of... But that's a post for another day.

I was going to mention the Lynx 14e and Lynx 5000e, but you stole my thunder right at the end.

 

[NickTrop]

Electro best 35mm camera ever made ... that's a bold claim!

Hard to disagree with in some aspects though.

I'm serious. Let me qualify. For RF-style photography. No flash, candids, available light, decisive moments it is the best RF camera ever made (except possibly the "true" all-manual Lynx or Minister series) for this style of photography. For this type of photography, in the vast majority of shooting situations, you want exact control over aperture, which controls most of how the image will be rendered as quickly as possible. It is the only camera design - as a fully ap. priority camera that meters in-camera perfectly in fractions of stops, no whole stops.

Because you have the best combination of speed and control of how the image will be rendered, without real sacrifices of images quality due to a less-than-top-of-the-line optics, it is the best RF ever designed for RF-style HCB-style photography. Period. This includes all Leicas (including manual models. Why? because they're slower by nature. C'mon, you're manually metering a scene. Or, you're going to accept whatever image the camera produces +/- f-stop because if you re-meter and re-set, you'll miss the decisive moment).

The Electro design is the best in this regard because if gives you:

1. The best combination of aesthetic control and speed Far better than any other camera in its genre.
2. No compromises in terms of optical quality - at least none that really matter, over literally any other lens regardless of price.
3. Parrallax-corrected 1:1 framing for "no compromises" precise framing.

Aperture priority + RF + excellent optics = the BEST combination or mix for the style of shooting RFs were intended. It combines P&S speed with complete and rapid control over image rendering. Moreso than any other camera in its genre, including Leicas.

Hence, this is the best series of RF camera ever made. Regadless of price, regardless of badge, hands down, bar none.

 

[NickTrop]

I was going to mention the Lynx 14e and Lynx 5000e, but you stole my thunder right at the end.

Yes. That's because it's these are the only cameras I know of that have both the aperture and shutter speed settings on the lens barrel. So you can - with practice, leave the SS fixed and rotate the aperture for aperture priority; leave the aperture fixed and rotate the shutter speed (because of where it's located) for shutter priority, or move them together for aperture and shutter speed combos up and down the scale. It is not designed as a "manual camera but really a shutter priority camera because the shutter speed control is located in a position that defeats the purpose so everyone uses it as a shutter priority camera" virtually shutter priority camera.

But that's a rant for another day.

 

[PhotoJim]

My Electro arrived today. As soon as I come up with a battery for it, I can put your claim to the test.

 

[jan normandale]

Nick you gotta stop raising these cameras in RFF.
• I’m sure it’s raising the price of these cameras on the internet ; http://flickr.com/groups/yashicaelectro/discuss/72157603858255243/
• People have a lot invested in other camera and lenses which you know very well, are they supposed to put their equipment on a shelf!
• You are arguing against the well known axiom “if you spend a lot your images will be better than if you don’t spend”
• If everyone buys one there won’t be any left when I need a new one

 

[NickTrop]

My Electro arrived today. As soon as I come up with a battery for it, I can put your claim to the test.

Lots of word but I hope you understand my claim. For RF-style shooting a camera MUST be aperture priority like the Electros or "truly" manual like the Lynx or Minster Yashicas. All other types of RFs are inferior to the Yashica aperture priority system with its stepless shutter for RF style photography. This is my claim. It is not only accurate, it is true. To "ice it" is the ability to "premeter" with the lights on the top plate. You have your "aperture range" and shoot in that range through premetering, before the camera reaches your eye.

No other RFs are worth shooting with because of the inferiority of non-aperture priority RF systems. If you understand the intended purpose of RF cameras, why they're still relevant, and RF-style photography and aesthetics you have no choice but to agree.

You either agree with my assertion - because it's obvious and clearly true beyond a shadow of a doubt, or you don't truly understand RF photography.

 

[NickTrop]

Nick you gotta stop raising these cameras in RFF.
• I’m sure it’s raising the price of these cameras on the internet ; http://flickr.com/groups/yashicaelectro/discuss/72157603858255243/
• People have a lot invested in other camera and lenses which you know very well, are they supposed to put their equipment on a shelf!
• You are arguing against the well known axiom “if you spend a lot your images will be better than if you don’t spend”
• If everyone buys one there won’t be any left when I need a new one

Well, to cop the philosophy of my conservative Republican friends, "who cares about anyone else, I got mine"

 

[jan normandale]

did you check the link? You should.... ;- )