Huck Finn
Well-known
The fourth installment, "What Needed to Be Changed," in the series of articles on the making of the ZI has been posted today on the Zeiss Ikon website. There is a much discussion about Zeiss cine lenses and how testing & trials led to changes in the camera body, but I found most interesting their comments on quality control. Of course, it is largely marketing hype, but interesting reading nonetheless.
Those interested in the ZI can find the article here: www.zeissikon.com/making_intro.htm
Huck
Those interested in the ZI can find the article here: www.zeissikon.com/making_intro.htm
Huck
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Thanks for the pointer. I've been enjoying this series, especially the last one with it's comments on preferences of the users vs. marketing... 
William
William
sgy1962
Well-known
It will be interesting to see what Erin Putts says about the ZI lenses. although he is pro-Leica, I suspect he will have nice things to say about these lenses; evereyone else has.
I'm lloking foward to sampling the huge viewfinder on the new camera. The eyerelief may be something special. We will see.
I'm lloking foward to sampling the huge viewfinder on the new camera. The eyerelief may be something special. We will see.
Paul T.
Veteran
They seem to emphasise (and why wouldn't they) the diverse applications in which their lenses are used - which essentially means they have much more lens design experience than Leica.
But given they're such a big company, whose turnover totally dwarfs that of Leica, I do still wonder why they're expending so much energy on such a niche product. It;s likely this will be better than the Minolta CLE, or the Hexar RF - but neither of those cameras attracted a large market, at a time when the film camera market was flourishing...
But given they're such a big company, whose turnover totally dwarfs that of Leica, I do still wonder why they're expending so much energy on such a niche product. It;s likely this will be better than the Minolta CLE, or the Hexar RF - but neither of those cameras attracted a large market, at a time when the film camera market was flourishing...
David Kieltyka
Clicking away feverishly
I suspect the film ZI is mainly a prelude to a digital version. But it's certainly worthwhile to get the lenses and the basic body design refined and out in the marketplace while continuing to work on the digital end. And hopefullly it'll result in a first-class 35mm RF for those of us who use film, whether exclusively or in addition to digital.
Of course I don't know Zeiss is working on a digital version. But I can't imagine them going ahead with this project otherwise.
-Dave-
Of course I don't know Zeiss is working on a digital version. But I can't imagine them going ahead with this project otherwise.
-Dave-
Last edited:
Matthew
Established
sgy1962 said:
His initial comments are up on his site now. Haven't yet sorted through the longish article though.
ErnestoJL
Well-known
IMHO, there could be several reasons. As Dave said, the people at ZI can be refinining an excellent film RF body able to be upgraded to the next generation with minor modifications(digital) so they can offer at a later date the same camera in both systems (or a drop in conversion kit - I guess its a nice feature indeed); having the body and lenses ready, the only thing missing is a huge sensor of say... 12 MP; other can be just market reasons because there are two competitor companies, Leica and Cosina/Voigtländer, which products are well sold (of course less than SLRs and APSs) but can be an interesting market niche. The least important reason why they put so much effort with this camera is just tradition (I´m sure that many of us thought at least once why ZI wasn´t doing something in this direction for the past years). Things in common with the three brandnames? A very well gained reputation of reliability, dependable cameras, solid, heavy, made to last... also, the higher priced are as allways Leica and Zeiss Ikon, CV Bessas are far cheaper....
Iskra 2
Kodachrome Rules!
Zeiss Ikon: chapter 6
Zeiss Ikon: chapter 6
Zeiss laments the end of Leica as serious competition. :angel: Peace.
Zeiss Ikon: chapter 6
Zeiss laments the end of Leica as serious competition.
:angel: Peace.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Huck: I'm too tired to read between the lines of chapter 4, but thanks indeed for alerting us. I have kept going to the site to check for it, and it got posted while I was out camping.
Not a lot interesting there, IMO, as the interesting stuff is, as you indicated, covered over with marketing-speak. But it is good to know that the prototyping and gearing up for productiion has gone through interations that engendered re-design to improve the lenses and the body. This is a good thing.
I agree that the new ZI perhaps part of Zeiss' run-up to a digital RF, but also believe that they say Leica's troubles coming and mounting, and decided this was a propitious moment to get into the market.
Trius
Not a lot interesting there, IMO, as the interesting stuff is, as you indicated, covered over with marketing-speak. But it is good to know that the prototyping and gearing up for productiion has gone through interations that engendered re-design to improve the lenses and the body. This is a good thing.
I agree that the new ZI perhaps part of Zeiss' run-up to a digital RF, but also believe that they say Leica's troubles coming and mounting, and decided this was a propitious moment to get into the market.
Trius
Mazurka
Well-known
Things like the ZI system takes more than a year in planning, which would place it well before the current Leica crisis.
I'd rather think Zeiss was aware of how the Contax line was doing under Kyocera. Either Kyocera indicated/implied they were losing interest (low profits/sales), or Zeiss was sick of Kyo's handling of the product line but still wished to maintain their presence in 35mm (or even venture into digital) photography, or both. Hence the collaboration with Cosina instead.
Too bad the Contax 645 had to be sacrificed too - it was certainly competitive in the MF market. Had I the money, it'd be my first choice if I got into MF.
I'd rather think Zeiss was aware of how the Contax line was doing under Kyocera. Either Kyocera indicated/implied they were losing interest (low profits/sales), or Zeiss was sick of Kyo's handling of the product line but still wished to maintain their presence in 35mm (or even venture into digital) photography, or both. Hence the collaboration with Cosina instead.
Too bad the Contax 645 had to be sacrificed too - it was certainly competitive in the MF market. Had I the money, it'd be my first choice if I got into MF.
pmu
Well-known
sgy1962 said:
What is the address to this site?
http://www.imx.nl/pmu said:
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
You could be correct, but I am willing to bet that the Leica crisis goes back further than a year in terms of what industry insiders know, and that Zeiss knew about it. These things don't usually happen overnight.Mazurka said:Things like the ZI system takes more than a year in planning, which would place it well before the current Leica crisis.
I'd rather think Zeiss was aware of how the Contax line was doing under Kyocera. Either Kyocera indicated/implied they were losing interest (low profits/sales), or Zeiss was sick of Kyo's handling of the product line but still wished to maintain their presence in 35mm (or even venture into digital) photography, or both. Hence the collaboration with Cosina instead.
Too bad the Contax 645 had to be sacrificed too - it was certainly competitive in the MF market. Had I the money, it'd be my first choice if I got into MF.
No doubt you are correct, though that they were less than pleased with the Kyocera situation.
Trius
sgy1962
Well-known
Leica is pretty easy to forecast at this point. You know their prices are just going to go up, and I query from where their buyers will come. Brand loyalty has it's limitations.
Plus any type of market study has probably pegged the price at which the consumers will purchase a film rangefinder and lenses. Leica has exceeded that glass ceiling, and it is not a suprise that their sales have dropped. And Leica prices have been too high, in my opinion for several years now. If it were not for the new products (e.g. ASPH lenses; M6ttl; M7; MP), the crisis would have been more evidant earlier.
The rangefinder market is a good sized nitch. Leica prices are so high at this point that any comprable and more affordable alternative will be very attractive to that market.
I suspect that if there is going to be a digital Zeiss rangefinder, then we will hear some type of announcement prior to the Leica digital rangefinder hitting the streets.
Plus any type of market study has probably pegged the price at which the consumers will purchase a film rangefinder and lenses. Leica has exceeded that glass ceiling, and it is not a suprise that their sales have dropped. And Leica prices have been too high, in my opinion for several years now. If it were not for the new products (e.g. ASPH lenses; M6ttl; M7; MP), the crisis would have been more evidant earlier.
The rangefinder market is a good sized nitch. Leica prices are so high at this point that any comprable and more affordable alternative will be very attractive to that market.
I suspect that if there is going to be a digital Zeiss rangefinder, then we will hear some type of announcement prior to the Leica digital rangefinder hitting the streets.
Huck Finn
Well-known
Trius said:
Hi, Trius -
As an avid camper myself, I'm glad to hear that you were out camping. Given that you split your time between Rochester & Toronto, you have access to many of the best camping opportunities in the world. I love the Adirondacks - especially the lake country & have camped in Algonquin as well. Heck, I bought 2 wood/canvas canoes while I was up in the Muskoka Lakes region. I hope you enjoyed your time under the stars. How could you not?
I agree with you that Zeiss probably saw Leica's trouble coming. Heck, didn't everyone? They'd been bleeding red ink for several years & sales had been dropping annually.. Well, maybe Leica was in denial. I also think that the timing was right for Zeiss, given issues with Kyocera & the decline of the film market for the Contax line. Everyone expects a digital ZI to be around the corner, but I don't think that you can underestimate the value & prestige of having a flagship line regardless - even if its a loss leader. I think that Nikon's decision to go forward with the F6 speaks to this. Both Zeiss & Nikon are the kinds of companies that can afford this & such products solidify their position oas the big kid on the block.
Cheers,
Huck
bobofish
Two-fisted Atom Smasher
I don't for a moment believe that Leica will either want to, or be able to pull this off, but I would think that a strategic partnership with Imacon, Hassy and Zeiss would be a great way for them to move forward in the world.
As is often said in the business world, "Grow or Die!" and Leica has been doing a lot more of the latter than the former, much to the dismay of those many who love Leica. I don't honestly believe that anyone in the world doesn't respect Leica products, even the trolls on P-net who try to point out how horrible Leica is in every possible way. Leica simply is at least one notch above in quality of lenses, build, etc. compared to every other company in 35 mm, and all maybe Alpa in all of photography.
The old rivalry with Zeiss/Contax seems silly to say the least. It seems to me like two old typewriter companies fighting with each other 20 years after every houshold owns a computer. With today's corporate mergers and takeovers, it makes no sense for a little company like Leica to value its pride and persist in some antiquated grudge with its old competitors.
Think of how much Leica could accomplish if they could ally with Zeiss and Imacon, rather than simply working with Imacon on an ad hoc basis to occasionally come out with a bastard sensor that may or may not be upgraded, depending on the whims of individual CEO's.
Not to mention how silly it is that a luxury goods manufacturer with no particular interest in photography is one of the primary shareholders of Leica....Just ridiculous.
Obviously Leica would get a lot by working with Nikon, but that's not going to happen either....and I'm guessing that their relationship with Panasonic will be spotty at best too. It's sad to me that such a capable company is so short-sighted, and bases their whole self-worth on a product that acheived market dominance almost 60 years ago.
As is often said in the business world, "Grow or Die!" and Leica has been doing a lot more of the latter than the former, much to the dismay of those many who love Leica. I don't honestly believe that anyone in the world doesn't respect Leica products, even the trolls on P-net who try to point out how horrible Leica is in every possible way. Leica simply is at least one notch above in quality of lenses, build, etc. compared to every other company in 35 mm, and all maybe Alpa in all of photography.
The old rivalry with Zeiss/Contax seems silly to say the least. It seems to me like two old typewriter companies fighting with each other 20 years after every houshold owns a computer. With today's corporate mergers and takeovers, it makes no sense for a little company like Leica to value its pride and persist in some antiquated grudge with its old competitors.
Think of how much Leica could accomplish if they could ally with Zeiss and Imacon, rather than simply working with Imacon on an ad hoc basis to occasionally come out with a bastard sensor that may or may not be upgraded, depending on the whims of individual CEO's.
Not to mention how silly it is that a luxury goods manufacturer with no particular interest in photography is one of the primary shareholders of Leica....Just ridiculous.
Obviously Leica would get a lot by working with Nikon, but that's not going to happen either....and I'm guessing that their relationship with Panasonic will be spotty at best too. It's sad to me that such a capable company is so short-sighted, and bases their whole self-worth on a product that acheived market dominance almost 60 years ago.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Huck Finn said:Hi, Trius -
As an avid camper myself, I'm glad to hear that you were out camping. Given that you split your time between Rochester & Toronto, you have access to many of the best camping opportunities in the world. I love the Adirondacks - especially the lake country & have camped in Algonquin as well. Heck, I bought 2 wood/canvas canoes while I was up in the Muskoka Lakes region. I hope you enjoyed your time under the stars. How could you not?<snip>
Cheers,
Huck
(OT) Huck: I have a canoe built by Will Ruch, who used to live and build near Port Carling. (He has since built a new home near Bancroft, as the Lake Muskoka/Lake Joseph area was just too busy with cottagers for his liking.)
Where/from whom did you get yours? Mine is a 15' boat built on a Peterborough type design. It is set up for both tandem and solo. It is not a high-volume canoe, so it's not really designed for longer tripping. But boy is she fast and smooth! My father-in-law, who was an Adirondack guide for many years, says it's the fastest canoe he's ever paddled.
Cheers,
Trius
Huck Finn
Well-known
Trius, both canoes I bought were handmade 16' Chestnut Prospectors, bought from Muskoka Fine Watercraft back in the '80s. I don't think that it is still in business. I bought 2 so that I could sell one back in the states to help finance the other. It is a great tripping canoe & performs best when fully loaded or when paddled solo.
Canoe camping is my favorite kind of camping & I love the Adirondack lakes region. I am proud to have paddled the 90-mile Old Forge to Saranac Lake route solo. I'm jealous ou your access to an Adirondack guide within the family. what a great resource!Lately, I've spent more time plying the waters of the Connecticut River in an electric launch that looks like the "African Queen." I think of it as a big canoe & just as quiet, but big enough that I can take my whole family along for the ride.
Cheers,
Huck
Canoe camping is my favorite kind of camping & I love the Adirondack lakes region. I am proud to have paddled the 90-mile Old Forge to Saranac Lake route solo. I'm jealous ou your access to an Adirondack guide within the family. what a great resource!Lately, I've spent more time plying the waters of the Connecticut River in an electric launch that looks like the "African Queen." I think of it as a big canoe & just as quiet, but big enough that I can take my whole family along for the ride.
Cheers,
Huck
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Huck: I think Muskoka Fine Watercraft morphed into another company. There is a company with a similar name in Port Carling, Muskoka Canoe & Rowaing, and something tells me there is some sort of connection, though I could be wrong.
Prospectors are great boats, and of course have attained legendary status thanks in part to Bill Mason's use of them. You are right about their performance. I paddled a Prospector type boat made by Doug Long (Longwood Canoe) that was very nice, but loaded only with me as a solo paddler, it just didn't "feel" right.
Your launch sounds very cool! We'll have to meet up someday.
Trius
Prospectors are great boats, and of course have attained legendary status thanks in part to Bill Mason's use of them. You are right about their performance. I paddled a Prospector type boat made by Doug Long (Longwood Canoe) that was very nice, but loaded only with me as a solo paddler, it just didn't "feel" right.
Your launch sounds very cool! We'll have to meet up someday.
Trius