Krosya
Konicaze
Hi All,
Just thought I would think out loud here. I read several reviews about the Ikon - the new alternative in RF world. I have Leica M3, IIIF and a Bessa R. I really most of the things about the new Ikon. I think it looks nice. I think it has many good features. Most of all I like the long RF base - reason I got M3 after not being satisfied with Bessa R's base line ----> focus accuracy. After getting M3 things improved a lot. I suppose I would like the swing back film loading, but bottom loader doesn't really give me any problems either. One thing that sort of works against me going for Ikon is - loud and battery dependent shutter. Well, it may not be that loud - I actually never held it in my hands (noone sells one locally), but some sites have recording of the shutter noise and my Leicas sound MUCH better/quieter. Plus I hate to be battery dependent. I know, it'll be a while before it have to change one. But I just like mechanical camera. Or at least one that still will work if battery dies. Bessa R seems to be the best compromise. And I really don't understand why Ikon, being made by Cosina didn't offer this version of a shutter. I know, I know - Ikon is not a Bessa, but in this respect, Bessa R is better IMHO.
I guess I will wait and see if either they will make a Bessa with a normal (long like M series Leica) RF base, or Ikon comes out as a full manual camera.
Until than - it's Leica.
Any thoughts, anyone? Do you think I have stupid reasons for not getting Ikon?
Just thought I would think out loud here. I read several reviews about the Ikon - the new alternative in RF world. I have Leica M3, IIIF and a Bessa R. I really most of the things about the new Ikon. I think it looks nice. I think it has many good features. Most of all I like the long RF base - reason I got M3 after not being satisfied with Bessa R's base line ----> focus accuracy. After getting M3 things improved a lot. I suppose I would like the swing back film loading, but bottom loader doesn't really give me any problems either. One thing that sort of works against me going for Ikon is - loud and battery dependent shutter. Well, it may not be that loud - I actually never held it in my hands (noone sells one locally), but some sites have recording of the shutter noise and my Leicas sound MUCH better/quieter. Plus I hate to be battery dependent. I know, it'll be a while before it have to change one. But I just like mechanical camera. Or at least one that still will work if battery dies. Bessa R seems to be the best compromise. And I really don't understand why Ikon, being made by Cosina didn't offer this version of a shutter. I know, I know - Ikon is not a Bessa, but in this respect, Bessa R is better IMHO.
I guess I will wait and see if either they will make a Bessa with a normal (long like M series Leica) RF base, or Ikon comes out as a full manual camera.
Until than - it's Leica.
Any thoughts, anyone? Do you think I have stupid reasons for not getting Ikon?
kevin m
Veteran
How many cameras do you need? Are you shooting for hire, and do you need a backup body? If not, then sell your M3 and R and get the Zeiss. You'd only be out a couple hundred dollars, plus you'd still have your screwmount for fondling. 
telenous
Well-known
I am also thinking a lot about the ZI. Here are my thouhts:
Like any camera, incl. M's, the ZI is an exercise in compromise between desirable and undesirable features. I love mechanical cameras but I am not averse to battery operated ones per se. The battery dependency issue is there but it doesn't loom as large as it once did in my head (mostly because I 've read some sensible arguments about the fallibility of mechanical shutters themselves). What I hate however about an electronic camera is the thought that if you fry the electronics you are left with a dead camera. repairing it will most probably involve a cost that will be comparable with buying a new one. That, and the realisation that I do not have any electronic equipment in my household in excess of, say, ten years of age. Why should it be different with a camera (indeed one that costs quite a lot)?
On the other hand, I also would like to have a camera that has an absolutely reliable shutter (timewise) when I shoot slide film. The AE is a welcome factor as well. My M2 could take care then of the B&W film and the ZI of chromes. The reported excellent viewfinder and the longer rf basis are both big pluses. The 1/125s synch speed is unfortunately non-TTL, so flash still is a problem (much worse with any classic M of course).
So, there you are, my pros and cons.
Like any camera, incl. M's, the ZI is an exercise in compromise between desirable and undesirable features. I love mechanical cameras but I am not averse to battery operated ones per se. The battery dependency issue is there but it doesn't loom as large as it once did in my head (mostly because I 've read some sensible arguments about the fallibility of mechanical shutters themselves). What I hate however about an electronic camera is the thought that if you fry the electronics you are left with a dead camera. repairing it will most probably involve a cost that will be comparable with buying a new one. That, and the realisation that I do not have any electronic equipment in my household in excess of, say, ten years of age. Why should it be different with a camera (indeed one that costs quite a lot)?
On the other hand, I also would like to have a camera that has an absolutely reliable shutter (timewise) when I shoot slide film. The AE is a welcome factor as well. My M2 could take care then of the B&W film and the ZI of chromes. The reported excellent viewfinder and the longer rf basis are both big pluses. The 1/125s synch speed is unfortunately non-TTL, so flash still is a problem (much worse with any classic M of course).
So, there you are, my pros and cons.
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VictorM.
Well-known
My old Nikon FE has never required service, except new seals. The batteries need replacing every three or four years. The only time the batteries died unexpectedly, I had left the camera turned on.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
Is that by choice, or because things failed? I have 16-year-old TVs, washing machine, microwave etc.; a 20-something-year-old stereo etc. My parents have a 50+ year old refrigerator that still keeps the beer cold.telenous said:
My OM-4, OM-20 and XA-2 are all at least 25 years old and still working. I don't see why electronics have to fail over time if they're well designed and housed. I know components fail (capacitors can leak, for example) but mostly I'd think that if they're protected from the elements and housed well enough to survive mechanical damage (vibration etc.) then they can keep going for years. My OM-4, in particular, has led a hard life but works just fine.telenous said:
Given that the ZI is still being manufactured, support shouldn't be an issue. If it becomes orphaned, and you love it too much to be without it, do what I did with my Hexar RF - buy a 2nd-hand spare (the price should drop for orphans) and store it safely (and without batteries). Get it out and use it once a year, and it should provide backup for ages. (Oh, and carry a mechanical camera with you, as well, on those occasions where total failure in the field is not an option.)
...Mike
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ZeissFan
Veteran
If you can't justify it, and you don't really need it, I probably wouldn't buy it. I probably would pick up a lens that I really wanted.
Great camera, but no need to spend money needlessly.
Great camera, but no need to spend money needlessly.
Flyfisher Tom
Well-known
I prefer manual camaras. But battery-dependent cameras can work just as well. Just bring extra batteries, they don't take up much space.
As for shutter sound, the ZI is a bit louder, but not so much as to be unworkable.
Get it, you know the urge will not go away
As for shutter sound, the ZI is a bit louder, but not so much as to be unworkable.
Get it, you know the urge will not go away
Krosya
Konicaze
kevin m said:How many cameras do you need? Are you shooting for hire, and do you need a backup body? If not, then sell your M3 and R and get the Zeiss. You'd only be out a couple hundred dollars, plus you'd still have your screwmount for fondling.
Well, Problem is not being able to pay for a ZI. I'd keep other cameras, well, maybe not Bessa R, if I got it. I just don't like the battery and shutter sound - compared to Leica. That was my issue with Bessa R - loud shutter and short RF base. Ikon solved one and a halfof it, but made it battery dependent. I do like all the other features of ZI. So, ...:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
Time will tell. Maybe I'll go for it. But I lean toward waiting and seeing if Ikon comes out with a more or fully mechanical camera.
I don't "have" to get a new camera. But I kinda want one. M3, while I really like it, not the best choice for a wider lenses. Maybe M2 or M4? I tell ya - if they made manual Ikon, or even Bessa R with long RF base - I think I'd go for it, even with shutter being as loud as it is. I tell ya, no shuch thing as perfect camera. Many come close, but perfect......? Oh well.
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JoeFriday
Agent Provacateur
yeah, I've got that same itch.. I can't quite pull the trigger, but I consider selling the M3 and CL to pick up a ZI.. I'm just biding my time for now
telenous
Well-known
mfunnell said:
Thanks Mike, I see what you mean.
I am pretty new in camera territory and my previous experience (many years back) with an electronic camera wasn't exactly a happy one (that was a Nikon f401). You are right of course, there are lots and lots of household electronic items that do survive (now that you mention the fridge, I am sure my mother's fridge is about 30-35 years old). In my flat there are some items the owner bought about ten years back - but for every one of them that survives, there's one that is now in the scrapyard (fridge, washing machine, stereo). Perhaps with cameras things are better. And yet, how many Oly XA2's or Nikon FE's are dead for the each one that is reported to be in a good state? I am not saying I know the answer, I am mereley speculating about it. The ZI is a brand new camera of course and one seriously hopes that Zeiss or Cosina will not abandon it.
Like I said, I am concerned about these things but I have not made up my mind yet. I also have a much greater concern about the wiseness of spending lots of money on another film body - but that is another story...
Best,
Krosya
Konicaze
BTW, if I do decide to buy one (ZI) , where is the best place to get one? I have seen them on Epay - some dealer selling brand new for a little less than $1200. But I think he was from Asia. Is it better to buy from USA (since I'm in USA) for the warranty issues - seems from the polls here that fare share of people had some issues with these cameras, so warranty work is a consideration as well.
kshapero
South Florida Man
live in USA, buy in USA. warranty issues. Consider R3M in IMHOKrosya said:
back alley
IMAGES
if you're not comfortable buying a piece of gear best not to buy it.
popflash is a great place to buy. cameraquest MIGHT have some zi old stock on hand, send stephen an email.
the battery thing seems silly these days when just about everything has a battery stuck into it somewhere. i think we fall into the romantic notion of being in some exotic place with no local store handy but that's not my reality. the zi finder is amazing and you know that is true because even the leica diehards have stopped challenging that notion. and yes, the longest rf base in current production (even longer then the m3, iirc) is wonderful to focus with. my ancient eyes have no problems at all.
i seriously doubt that zeiss has a fully manual camera in the works or is even thinking about one.
the shutter sound is a non issue for me but i shoot on the street where noise in general is not an issue. like most cameras that i've owned, i get used to it and i don't even hear the shutter any more when i shoot.
camera life today is truly a treat for us rf folk...so many choices in 3 different price ranges.
joe
popflash is a great place to buy. cameraquest MIGHT have some zi old stock on hand, send stephen an email.
the battery thing seems silly these days when just about everything has a battery stuck into it somewhere. i think we fall into the romantic notion of being in some exotic place with no local store handy but that's not my reality. the zi finder is amazing and you know that is true because even the leica diehards have stopped challenging that notion. and yes, the longest rf base in current production (even longer then the m3, iirc) is wonderful to focus with. my ancient eyes have no problems at all.
i seriously doubt that zeiss has a fully manual camera in the works or is even thinking about one.
the shutter sound is a non issue for me but i shoot on the street where noise in general is not an issue. like most cameras that i've owned, i get used to it and i don't even hear the shutter any more when i shoot.
camera life today is truly a treat for us rf folk...so many choices in 3 different price ranges.
joe
amateriat
We're all light!
Krosya,
Let me see if I'm reading you right:
- The M3 is swell, but it's hard to do the wide-angle thing with
- The R2 does the wide-angle thing, but has somewhat less-accurate focusing
- The screw-mount Leica is largely just there for the "warm fuzzies"
- The ZI addresses the first two issues (and a few others besides, IMO), but you've raised objections to the camera's electronic shutter, and associated battery dependency
Based on the Quentin Crisp concept of "swimming with the tide, only faster", I have the solution from a strictly picture-taking standpoint: sell everything (camera-body-wise, that is...keep the glass), and buy the ZI. The reasons are:
- Better focusing (on par with the M3, which seems about as good as it gets)
- Ability to handle WA lenses with ease (and auto-frameline setting, to boot)
- A shutter that likely will likely prove more reliable than its purely-mechanical counterpart. The hills, attics, camera-store shelves, pawnshops and eBay auctions are alive with Pentax ESs, Canon AE-1s, Minolta XE-7s, my Olympus OM-2n, and Dog knows how many other brands and models made over the last 35 years, most of whose shutters are working quite nicely (although the cameras might be suffering from other unrelated problems). The Industry (read: Copal, plus maybe one or two others) has been cranking out these shutters by the container-load for so long it's beyond second-nature. No pro SLR has had a purely-mechanical shutter since the Reagan administration, and few have complained. One might worry about the other electronic bits in a pro dSLR (well, I would...), but that shutter is probably solid. The one in the ZI is likely trustworthy. All you need is a spare set of batteries, which weigh next to nothing to carry along. Don't worry, keep shooting. (You won't be replacing them that often, anyway.)
- Choice of manual or AE TTL metering. Choice is good (usually).
- Two Words: black paint.
- No racking your brain about "what to bring". One great camera that handles the most tasks well is more inspiring to use (and far less distracting) than four kinda-sorta-okay-but-not-quite-it cameras, each with its own idiosyncracies you have to re-learn/un-learn each time you switch from one to another, which, IMO, gets in the way of what you're trying to do with them.
And that's it. The rest is simple: chop film, carry developer. Repeat.
- Barrett
Let me see if I'm reading you right:
- The M3 is swell, but it's hard to do the wide-angle thing with
- The R2 does the wide-angle thing, but has somewhat less-accurate focusing
- The screw-mount Leica is largely just there for the "warm fuzzies"
- The ZI addresses the first two issues (and a few others besides, IMO), but you've raised objections to the camera's electronic shutter, and associated battery dependency
Based on the Quentin Crisp concept of "swimming with the tide, only faster", I have the solution from a strictly picture-taking standpoint: sell everything (camera-body-wise, that is...keep the glass), and buy the ZI. The reasons are:
- Better focusing (on par with the M3, which seems about as good as it gets)
- Ability to handle WA lenses with ease (and auto-frameline setting, to boot)
- A shutter that likely will likely prove more reliable than its purely-mechanical counterpart. The hills, attics, camera-store shelves, pawnshops and eBay auctions are alive with Pentax ESs, Canon AE-1s, Minolta XE-7s, my Olympus OM-2n, and Dog knows how many other brands and models made over the last 35 years, most of whose shutters are working quite nicely (although the cameras might be suffering from other unrelated problems). The Industry (read: Copal, plus maybe one or two others) has been cranking out these shutters by the container-load for so long it's beyond second-nature. No pro SLR has had a purely-mechanical shutter since the Reagan administration, and few have complained. One might worry about the other electronic bits in a pro dSLR (well, I would...), but that shutter is probably solid. The one in the ZI is likely trustworthy. All you need is a spare set of batteries, which weigh next to nothing to carry along. Don't worry, keep shooting. (You won't be replacing them that often, anyway.)
- Choice of manual or AE TTL metering. Choice is good (usually).
- Two Words: black paint.
- No racking your brain about "what to bring". One great camera that handles the most tasks well is more inspiring to use (and far less distracting) than four kinda-sorta-okay-but-not-quite-it cameras, each with its own idiosyncracies you have to re-learn/un-learn each time you switch from one to another, which, IMO, gets in the way of what you're trying to do with them.
And that's it. The rest is simple: chop film, carry developer. Repeat.
- Barrett
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Frank K
Member
My ZI feels so well balanced in my hands. The shutter release has just the right amount of tension so as not to keep firing it by mistake when holding half way down. Lots of pluses for this camera IMHO.
pizzahut88
Well-known
You thoughts are my thoughts.
You thoughts are my thoughts.
No, your reasons are not stupid.
A month ago I had to make the same decisions.
At the end, I picked the Bessa R2.
Had the Zeiss Ikon been fully mechanic,
I would have got it already.
So, no, you are not the only one who thinks this way.
And I believe there is a market for two versions of the Zeiss Ikon,
one mechanic, one electronic shutter priority type.
About the SW version, I could care less.
Oddly, the SW version is selling for more than the normal here.
The distributor here in Hong Kong is stupid.
If I ever want one, I get it from the net.
Manfred
You thoughts are my thoughts.
Krosya said:
No, your reasons are not stupid.
A month ago I had to make the same decisions.
At the end, I picked the Bessa R2.
Had the Zeiss Ikon been fully mechanic,
I would have got it already.
So, no, you are not the only one who thinks this way.
And I believe there is a market for two versions of the Zeiss Ikon,
one mechanic, one electronic shutter priority type.
About the SW version, I could care less.
Oddly, the SW version is selling for more than the normal here.
The distributor here in Hong Kong is stupid.
If I ever want one, I get it from the net.
Manfred
Huck Finn
Well-known
Leica M6.
M
Magnus
Guest
You ask the members of this forum for justification for all their purchases ?
Who need justification....
And if you think you do ... well you'll come up with something the question is will it justful justification, could you look yourself in the eye and convince yourself .... no? ... I thought as much, but it's a trick that works. Ask the guys whom are married and how they justify their purchases to there wives .... you will read and learn .....
Justifying the purchases of all my photo related equipment in an honest manner would be impossible.... act on impulse, the M3 is a great camera, so is the ZI justification being that you have the M3 but not the ZI....
.... Just a thought
Who need justification....
And if you think you do ... well you'll come up with something the question is will it justful justification, could you look yourself in the eye and convince yourself .... no? ... I thought as much, but it's a trick that works. Ask the guys whom are married and how they justify their purchases to there wives .... you will read and learn .....
Justifying the purchases of all my photo related equipment in an honest manner would be impossible.... act on impulse, the M3 is a great camera, so is the ZI justification being that you have the M3 but not the ZI....
.... Just a thought
R
Richard Black
Guest
I understand your concerns, but I have one of the above mentioned 70's cameras, AE-1, that has had only the light seals replaced and, of course, the battery, and it still takes fantastic pictures. I don't think that is a worry. Consider the soon to be release Bessa 4RM, said to be targeted to wide users with frame lines from 21mm to 50mm. And as has been mentioned as the Bessas evolve they have become quieter. I don't think they will ever reach the Leica M stage but they seem to be getting a bit closer. This option saves some money for lenses.
Krosya
Konicaze
So, where would I get one (if I do decide to do so), where there is a reasonable return policy (if there is such a place)? In US.
Advice?
thanks
Advice?
thanks