Zeiss Ikon ZM or M5

[Keith]

I think you had a M6 or M6 TTL? I was disappointed with my M6, too, in terms of its build quality compared to the barnacks, earlier Ms and the MP.

P. Lynn, I can understand the Leica mechanical charm. For your needs in a Leica, I highly recommend the M2 or M4-P. Ask Tom A. about shooting a 28 with the entire M2 VF as the frame; it is easy to do and it is quite accurate; it will take your appreciation of the cv 28/2 to new heights. With the M2 you get a great meterless manly man's camera body that you can use as a self-defense brick in times of great need. The M4-P has both a red dot and the 28 framelines in the VF and it is meterless like the M2. The cheapest Leica M option for you is a M2 with a Youxin Ye CLA. Get one, you won't regret it.

This is the year of the M2! Join the party

Sounds like the decision has been made but I strongly agree with Thomas here. I sold my M5 without much regret to be honest but you'd have to fight me for my M2. If I was reduced to having just one Leica it would be the M2 ... or maybe the M3?

 

[tedwin]

"I have just been offered the M5 at price, that I would have to be absolutely crazy not to buy it"

I bought an Olympus Stylus epic the other day for $NZ12.50, complete with case, manual and a spare battery... Point being what's the point. If you are going to go for whatever is cheapest, its not really worth asking is it?

Anyway, my other 2 cents. ZI. Buy new, be covered by warranty so if anything wrong you can get it fixed free, you will end up with a flawless camera however clumsy the postman. Does everything you said you wanted, while the M5 doesn't.

Whatever you get, I hope you love it.

Is a Morris Minor better than a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic? Not unless you happen to really like Morris Minors.... Ideally I suppose you would have both. Maybe you should get the M5 as a steal, then start saving for a decent camera (joke)

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

I finally had time to get to my local Zeiss stockist today and he was willing to let me play with the ZI for about an hour.

I was pleasantly surprised, the camera had a good fit and feel. Nothing sloppy about the quality of the ZI, while it is lighter than a Leica M, it feels sound and solid compared to the more flimsy, tinny feel of the Bessa series. And the shutter is a little happier sounding than the Bessa, but still had that metallic clatter. But all in all, it is a very nice camera.

Yes, I am sure you knew it was coming, but... the viewfinder was disappointing. Now this is a purely personal observation based on my hour with the ZI. The 28mm frame was not visible while wearing my glasses, had lots of trouble with complete flare-out of the focusing patch, even worse than my R2. In fact, there were times it completely disappeared in the chaos of a scene. So while the viewfinder was big and bright, it was not that much better that I would pay 3 times more than a Bessa. But even worse was the metering, when my eye was centered for the focusing patch, I could not see the metering strip, again this is not a problem with my R2. And to top it off, the meter seemed erratic, you could open or close the lens by a stop of more with no reaction from the meter. Not that it really mattered, since I prefer to use a handheld meter anyway.

So while I am sure the viewfinder/rangerfinder is amazing for someone not cursed with wearing spectacles every waking hour of their life, it simply failed to deliver in the criteria that made a difference to me. So while I will not be buying a ZI, I would highly recommend that you check it out, because if it works for you, it is a very well built, well designed camera.

I guess it did not help matters, that dealer when he handed it to me, said, "I think the ZI is way over-priced for what you get." And personally I would have to agree, when considering that you can buy about 3 Bessa's for the price of one ZI, and the Bessa has proven it is a tough little beast in the real world. And that they both come from the same factory, that is some food for thought. Of course, we all know that Cosina has set a precedent with the Bessa that is nothing short of amazing, a good rangefinder at a price that is hard not to like.

So while I am sure I am going to cop a caning from the ZI lovers here, I went looking to buy a ZI but came home without one.

And if it is any consolation to the ZI loyalists, the M5 is not on my shopping list anymore either...

But I did leave the store with a M3 loaded with film for the trip home. Oops...

 

[jonmanjiro]

The question was Zeiss Ikon ZM or M5 ??? The answer ends up being M3 !!! Hehe, funny how these things work out And congratulations on the M3, a fine machine indeed. If only loading film into it was as easy as, say, a Nikon SP ...

Just a couple of questions! Who's the Zeiss stockist in Sydney? What is their pricing on the ZI?

 

[Keith]

I finally had time to get to my local Zeiss stockist today and he was willing to let me play with the ZI for about an hour.

I was pleasantly surprised, the camera had a good fit and feel. Nothing sloppy about the quality of the ZI, while it is lighter than a Leica M, it feels sound and solid compared to the more flimsy, tinny feel of the Bessa series. And the shutter is a little happier sounding than the Bessa, but still had that metallic clatter. But all in all, it is a very nice camera.

Yes, I am sure you knew it was coming, but... the viewfinder was disappointing. Now this is a purely personal observation based on my hour with the ZI. The 28mm frame was not visible while wearing my glasses, had lots of trouble with complete flare-out of the focusing patch, even worse than my R2. In fact, there were times it completely disappeared in the chaos of a scene. So while the viewfinder was big and bright, it was not that much better that I would pay 3 times more than a Bessa. But even worse was the metering, when my eye was centered for the focusing patch, I could not see the metering strip, again this is not a problem with my R2. And to top it off, the meter seemed erratic, you could open or close the lens by a stop of more with no reaction from the meter. Not that it really mattered, since I prefer to use a handheld meter anyway.

So while I am sure the viewfinder/rangerfinder is amazing for someone not cursed with wearing spectacles every waking hour of their life, it simply failed to deliver in the criteria that made a difference to me. So while I will not be buying a ZI, I would highly recommend that you check it out, because if it works for you, it is a very well built, well designed camera.

I quess it did not help matters, that dealer when he handed it to me, said, "I think the ZI is way over-priced for what you get." And personally I would have to agree, that considering that you buy about 3 Bessa's for the price of one ZI, and the Bessa has proven it is a tough little beast in the real world. And the they both come from the same factory, that is some food for thought. Of course, we all know that Cosina has set a precedent with the Bessa that is nothing short of amazing, a good rangefinder at a price that is hard not like.

So while I am sure I am going to cop a caning from the ZI lovers here, I went looking to buy a ZI but came home without one.

And if it is any consolation to ZI loyalist, the M5 is not on my shopping list anymore either...

But I did leave the store with a M3 loaded with film for the trip home. Oops...

No offence taken by this Z1 owner ... cameras are a very personal thing but I am glad you didn't get the M5!

The viewfinder makes or breaks the Ikon for a lot of people ... at first it really bugged me with the rf patch being constantly elusive but as I said that did change. The glasses thing is another matter though and I can see where you're coming from here ... not that I wear them but I used to until I switched to contacts.

I think comparing the Ikon to the Bessa is frought with danger though and I personally don't believe the Ikon is over priced at all. It depends where you shop I guess ... I paid twice the price for my Zeiss that I paid for my R4A and I believe that the R4A is the camera you have to compare the Ikon to if you want to be fair because realistically it's Voigtlander's flagship model.

Very pleased to see that you walked away with an M3 though ... I have a very early model from the first 5000 made and it's by far the smoothest quietest camera I own. It cost me a good chunk of money to have the rangefinder rebuilt a year ago so I definitely wont be parting with it in the foreseeable future!

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

Just a couple of questions! Who's the Zeiss stockist in Sydney? What is their pricing on the ZI?

Not sure who else may be stocking the Zeiss rangefinders in Sydney, but Foto Reisel on Kent Street is the only place that would let me play with a ZI that I could find. The price was a staggering $2300AUD!

I think comparing the Ikon to the Bessa is frought with danger though and I personally don't believe the Ikon is over priced at all. It depends where you shop I guess ... I paid twice the price for my Zeiss that I paid for my R4A and I believe that the R4A is the camera you have to compare the Ikon to if you want to be fair because realistically it's Voigtlander's flagship model.

Very pleased to see that you walked away with an M3 though ... I have a very early model from the first 5000 made and it's by far the smoothest quietest camera I own.

Even with all my criticism of the ZI, I would still recommend it as a camera worthy of serious consideration. Bessa, Zeiss Ikon, Leica M all have one very important feature in common, the M-mount. So any of the cameras can be used with the same stunning glass whether it be a VC, Zeiss, Leica or even a Hexanon lens. Isn't that great? Pick your weapon and hit the streets.

The serial number on my M3 is 705267, whatever that is worth. I will discuss my toy in more detail in a new thread over in the Leica section soon.

 

[Keith]

I see that Matsuiya has the Ikon for $1458.00 AUD which is a hell of a lot better than $2300.00! I paid just over $1300.00 AUD for mine from him and he was a pleasure to deal with ... there's no way I would pay $2300.00 for one and I'd be surprised if they're selling many at that price ... you would get an immaculate M7 for that sort of money!

That's a very early M3 you have ... mine is 703496 which is very close to yours!

Check this table for the exact info ... http://www.jck.net/leica/index_e.html

they are a thing of beauty ...

 

[jonmanjiro]

Not sure who else may be stocking the Zeiss rangefinders in Sydney, but Foto Reisel on Kent Street is the only place that would let me play with a ZI that I could find. The price was a staggering $2300AUD!

$2,300AUD??? WOW

The list price (as determined by Zeiss/Cosina) in Japan is 153,000 yen (+ 5% consumption tax), so the $2,300 AUD price tag is about 1.34 x higher than that, and a staggering 1.56 x higher if you take into consideration that the actual street price is about 138,000 yen (or less if you're lucky). Pricing @ B&H and PopFlash is $1,408USD (PopFlash even has a few used ZI's @ $997USD at the moment), and as Keith mentioned, pricing at Matsuiya is $1458.00 AUD. Not quite as good as Japan street prices, but still a lot better that $2,300 AUD. The $2,300 AUD pricing says to me that Foto Reisel has little interest in selling any Zeiss Ikons.

 

[Keith]

I hadn't looked at their site for a while ... I can't even see the Ikon listed so obviously they don't want to sell any.

I did see this which made me gasp ... no wonder I and a lot of others don't buy film in this country any more!

Ilford HP5 PLUS 135 36ex 10 Pack
$106.90
Ilford HP5 PLUS is a high speed, medium contrast film making it especially suitable for action and press photography.

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

Well, I have to agree that I was stunned when the salesman told the price of the ZI. I had done enough online research to know that the US street price was in the $1500USD range, so I was thinking $1700AUD, maybe...

If you can get a ZI for around the $1500AUD range from Japan, the ZI is definite 'must-look-at' for the rangefinder user.

My Leica ownership has been very brief, while the M3 looked and felt the part, when I pulled the first roll of film out of the tank, I knew that we were in trouble. The leading shutter curtain was not opening the whole way and intruding on the frame. Since I bought the M3 with the understanding that is have been recently serviced, it was returned for a full refund this afternoon. One advantage to buying from a reputable shop instead of eBay, I was immediately offered a full refund and a profuse apology.

I used the M3 so much in 2 days that I was double-stroking the Bessa this afternoon!! Funny though, the M5 is back on the horizon again. Hmmm....

Owning a Leica or two is not a matter of if anymore, but when and which one's. But that does not take away from the quality and user-freindly of the ZI if it works for you.

 

[Thanasis]

Not sure who else may be stocking the Zeiss rangefinders in Sydney, but Foto Reisel on Kent Street is the only place that would let me play with a ZI that I could find. The price was a staggering $2300AUD!



Even with all my criticism of the ZI, I would still recommend it as a camera worthy of serious consideration. Bessa, Zeiss Ikon, Leica M all have one very important feature in common, the M-mount. So any of the cameras can be used with the same stunning glass whether it be a VC, Zeiss, Leica or even a Hexanon lens. Isn't that great? Pick your weapon and hit the streets.

The serial number on my M3 is 705267, whatever that is worth. I will discuss my toy in more detail in a new thread over in the Leica section soon.

Does the M3 have aa 0.58 or 0.72 viewfinder? How are the 28mm lines on it with glasses?

 

[amateriat]

Well, true, the ZI ain't a Leica.

Neither is the Hexar RF. Didn't stop me from going out and getting one. Then, liking it so much, going out and getting another. (Brand-new both times, mind you.) An associate has the ZI, and I like it so much I'm figuring out how to cobble together the bucks to buy his (and maybe the 35 f/2 Biogon attached to it). Good ergonomics, a normal swing-open back, higher-than-Leica shutter/flash-sync speeds...yes, you can argue that an M5 (or most any Leica, for that matter) is built to to a higher standard, but I don't think we're talking "good" versus "bad" here. Zeiss doesn't put its name on garbage.

It's about taking pictures, not hewing to pedigree at all costs.


- Barrett

 

[Frankie]

It's a minor point but the M5 was one of the last M's to allow the user easy access to adjust the rf if it goes out of wack from rough use. The ZM needs to go back to Zeiss for this adjustment.

Leica fanatics don't adjust their own RF, they either send the camera to some celebrated repair guru not likely residing in their home town or back to the fatherland.

The ZM rangefinder alignment was one of the targets of attack since inception. What I don't understand is that the so called "street" photographers zone focus; and landscape photographers set focus at infinity or hyper focus; and we all know close up in RF is hopeless. The much touted wide-angles all have great dept of field...so what is the beef?

Besides, how many of you even have a fine slot or cross-point (don't call it a Phillips because it isn't) screw driver to perform the task; or a method or device to correctly set the RF.

My ZM (2007 vintage) had never given me any trouble.

 

[presspass]

I second Mr. Miller's comments about the ZM viewfinder meter readout. With glasses on, it's almost impossible to see - make that impossible. Add bright sunlight and i either have to shoot it on AE, use sunny16, or take out an incident meter. Nice camera, great framelines, but impossible meter readout.

 

[Krosya]

I've said this before - while there is no "perfect" camera, there is one in RF world that comes pretty close:

Just another idea to throw into the mix.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Besides, how many of you even have a fine slot or cross-point (don't call it a Phillips because it isn't) screw driver to perform the task; or a method or device to correctly set the RF.

> don't call it a Phillips because it isn't

Slightly OT, but since I've been calling cross-point screws Phillips head screws and cross-point screw drivers Phillips head screw drivers all my life, the comment above peaked my interest After some quick googling I came up with this and this Seems to me that Phillips is perfectly acceptable to use in place of cross-point, and we can even thank Henry F. Phillips (1890 – 1958), a U.S. businessman from Portland, Oregon for the (his) name.

 

[peripatetic]

I second Mr. Miller's comments about the ZM viewfinder meter readout. With glasses on, it's almost impossible to see - make that impossible. Add bright sunlight and i either have to shoot it on AE, use sunny16, or take out an incident meter. Nice camera, great framelines, but impossible meter readout.

Eh? I use glasses all the time and I can see the meter readout. Though the patch isn't visible at the same time, but honestly shooting B&W neg I find the A-priority works just fine, there is sufficient exposure latitude that I have yet to seriously get anything wrong.

 

[Hacker]

The ZI sells less than US$1100 new here in Singapore.

 

[bennyng]

The ZI sells less than US$1100 new here in Singapore.

Looks like prices are heading down south in a lot of markets. Is it time yet?

Cheers,

 

[Frankie]

> don't call it a Phillips because it isn't

Slightly OT, but since I've been calling cross-point screws Phillips head screws and cross-point screw drivers Phillips head screw drivers all my life, the comment above peaked my interest After some quick googling I came up with this and this Seems to me that Phillips is perfectly acceptable to use in place of cross-point, and we can even thank Henry F. Phillips (1890 – 1958), a U.S. businessman from Portland, Oregon for the (his) name.

The inside corner of the cross in a cross-point is not rounded. You can make do with a Phillips until you get into the smaller sizes used in cameras. Common hardware store Phillips screw drivers ranges from size 1 to 3, while cross-points starts from 0 to 00000. The most common is a 00 size used in Nikon cameras since the F2.

I discovered this the hard way in the mid-'70's when trying to remove the redundant meter coupling prongs on the then new Nikkor AI lenses. :bang: