Joosep
Well-known
Hi guys!
I have been looking for a 6x9 folder for some time now.
I am being offered a Ikonta 524/2 with the Tessar 105 3,5 T coated and all.
I fiddled with it, its in superb condition, the lens is clean, blades move without a problem, the shutter speeds seemed accurate to my eye, the bellows is great and even the rangefinder is aligned...
So, I am looking one for practical shooting (folder is the only 6x9 that would suit me)....La speed is not a problem ( the uncouplex rf ).
Would you say go for it ? I have looked at some nice bessas with rf on ebay.... should I wait for one?
And what would be the price range for such a clean nice Ikonta? 200-300? More ?
Thanks in advance !
I have been looking for a 6x9 folder for some time now.
I am being offered a Ikonta 524/2 with the Tessar 105 3,5 T coated and all.
I fiddled with it, its in superb condition, the lens is clean, blades move without a problem, the shutter speeds seemed accurate to my eye, the bellows is great and even the rangefinder is aligned...
So, I am looking one for practical shooting (folder is the only 6x9 that would suit me)....La speed is not a problem ( the uncouplex rf ).
Would you say go for it ? I have looked at some nice bessas with rf on ebay.... should I wait for one?
And what would be the price range for such a clean nice Ikonta? 200-300? More ?
Thanks in advance !
chippy
foo was here
a lot comes down to personal preference, Ziess Ikon vs Voigtander is a bit like Canon vs Nikon, some people prefer to stick with ZI and collect (and use) as many as they can others prefer the big V. however there are some basic differences between the cameras to consider for your choice
each camera can be had for a bargain if your in the right place at the right time, $300 for the 524/2 is on the steep side, $200 is not bad and somewhere in between is about premium market price for one in great condition w/tessar and s/compur (prob a every-ready case should be included or some accessories)...most will have lesser combinations which makes getting the 524/2 very attractive
pros for the (your) ZI
- great sturdy construction and quality
- coated lens
- double exposure prevention (which is really just a double exposure indicator)
- scarcer Tessar with S/Compur combination, good to use and better resale value
pro for the Bessa w/RF (which model are you considering?) bessa 1 with accessory RF, if it has the scarce color scopar (also coated) with s/compur (get it!) ticks all the same boxes as the 524/2, in addition it has 6x4.5 capability, the back door opens much easier with easy to press tabs on each side (moved away from those fiddly little sliding knobs that have always been a bit of a pain that all manuafactures used at some point) , just as strong as the ZI, in landscape mode the ZI sits a little more level than the Bessa 1 but thats a small thing, both sit (on a table or whatever) well in portrait mode, a small leg opens for the Bessa the ZI sits on the door, a con for the bessa 1 is no onboard RF but but adding an accessory RF works well, i prefer the colour scopar and Bessa 1 myself but between the two there is very little in it. if the Bessa 1 with Vaskar lens then i would easily choose your 524/2 with tessar
black bessa RF pro's over 524/2
- has the advantage of a coupled RF, not a small thing really,
- it also has the advantage of being a unit focusing lens, both a big advantage in my book but one that you pay dearly for. a bit better performance for portrait and infinity focus
- can be focused while camera is closed
- can be used in 6x4.5
- some have the yellow filter swing away door, intact (can take other colours as well) which is quite convenient
- has DoF scale
- looks cool and unique with its black top and curved design. like a zeppelin!
you would pay more in many instances for a scopar or heliar equipped Bessa but it is the better camera with better lens, you may get a Helomar equipped Bessa E(RF) which is a triplet lens, in many (most) instances (e.g mid range) the tessar will give better results. most will have the older compur rapid shutter that goes up to 400, in reality it performs as good as the s/compur but its speed scales may or may not suit your light meter, you need to check if its important to you, generally its easy to work around
Bessa II is about the creme de la creme (and more expensive), its practically the same camera as the black bessa E (RF) with a different top, now chrome and wind knob is on the top with a depth of field scale on it, so it no longer looks like zeppelin but still slides into a pocket easier than the ZI, updated to s/compur and coated lenses (no more Helomar), a couple of the small little things that could break on the bessa RF if ruff treated are updated to be a little better too, due care is still needed though of course but is a sturdy camera. now has a combined RF and viewfinder which is handy, although some prefer to have the clear window with no RF patch in the middle of the black Bessa RF, most bessa II's are not 6x4.5 capable and the film door closure is updated like the Bessa 1 which is nicer to use
there ya go, some differences laid out, does that help?
all in all the ZI w/ tessar and s/compur is worth getting for the right price, w/tessar is less common. the bessa's are the better camera when it comes down to it though..you have a tough choice perhaps!
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I think you will be very happy with the Ikonta -- the uncoupled RF is actually pretty convenient; just remember to set the lens! But the image quality of the Tessar and the construction of the Ikonta are superb. I agree with the previous post that $300 is high; you might even be able to get the Ikonta for under $200 if you look hard enough.
The Bessas are nice, but I have read that their construction isn't as rigid as the Ikontas -- more chance that the lens can be wobbly or not parallel to the film plane.
The Bessas are nice, but I have read that their construction isn't as rigid as the Ikontas -- more chance that the lens can be wobbly or not parallel to the film plane.
Joosep
Well-known
190€ for the Ikonta, that looks VERY nice...
Hmm so hard...... what to do...
I was looking for a Bessa II on ebay.
I dont really care about the 6x4,5 to be honest.
When you said better portrait performance, you mean wide open close focus ? (thats what I would use it 90% of the time)
Hmm so hard...... what to do...
I was looking for a Bessa II on ebay.
I dont really care about the 6x4,5 to be honest.
When you said better portrait performance, you mean wide open close focus ? (thats what I would use it 90% of the time)
chippy
foo was here
like i and KoNickon above said, you would like ZI and be very happy with it, but if money is no object (as with all things photography large increase in money for small gains) then a bessa II is hands down the better camera, particularly if portrait is your thing but a Bessa II could cost you three or so times what the 524/2 would !. thats a very real consideration for many people, in a situation where you dont have the funds for the expensive Bessa II you simply make do with best you can get and in many cases people can make great pictures with varying degrees of inconvenience, speed or quality of lens (=picture), sometimes a bit of both....
i say better portrait performance for a couple a reasons; both quality of end result and function, thats to say speed and ease of taking it
being a unit focusing lens ,whereby the whole lens (i.e. all four elements with a scopar) moves as a unit on the front bed of the camera, as opposed to just the front cell focus on the 524 ,whereby just the front element moves further out and subsequently away from the other lens elements the closer you wish to focus, e.g as you do in portrait photography. a unit focusing lens performs a little better (pictures nicer, OOF areas smoother and better resolution) in these situations (and a few others).
also the unit focusing lens will focus on a subject a little closer than a front cell focusing camera, mere inches, but that can be quite useful sometimes
also having a coupled range finder (CRF) is decidedly more convenient in some situations and portrait photography would be one of them, it will make it easier to focus on the eyes of your subject for instance and with a wide aperture set and all things being well (a serviced camera) it will be in focus. it is harder to get perfect consistent results with a front cell focusing lens camera, particularly with wider apertures as you would use in portrait. with a CRF if you (step forward for zoom or back for wide angle
) or if the subject moves it is instantly noticeable through the viewfinder, which on a Bessa II you are looking through of course, with a quick turn of the knob without taking the camera away from your eye you can adjust in short time...in other words it allows you to recompose quicker and easier, no fuss, hence better for portraithope that helps
cheers
chippy
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
I am a happy user of the Bessa RF. In fact, I have two of them, both with the Heliar lens. I bought them when it was still easy to get a Heliar equipped one for under $200, but the prices have gone up since.
To me, the Bessa RF (or its newer sibling the Bessa II) is the best classic folder in 6x9 format. I have a bunch of other folders (Super Ikonta, Mess Ikonta, Agfa Rapid III, Welta, Telka III, Moskva 5) and I find the Bessa to be the most usable and the one delivering the best image quality overall.
As stated by Chippy, the Bessa RF features some decisive advantages over its concurrents: great coupled rangefinder with quite usable viewfinder (for a folder), sturdy construction, good quality unit focusing lens, no prone-to-break mechanical "enhancements" (no view counter, no auto film advance), a wonderful design and a gorgeous black finish...
I frequently read posts form people on various forums complaining about the "flimsy front standard" of the classic Bessa cameras. I think this misconception gets carried over from Ivor Matanle books. In fact, the construction of the Bessa is perfectly adequate and there is no inherent problem with its front standard, which is rather sturdy.
I have seen quite a lot of Bessa RF and Bessa II cameras, and 99% of them were in perfectly good shape, despite their old age -- in fact I would say that it is more frequent to find a Super Ikonta with issues (yellow and blurry viewfinder, out of whack rangefinder, stripped gears) than a Bessa...
There are indeed a few Bessa with bent front standards, but this is the consequence of the owner not knowing how to fold the camera (there is a large button to press) and forcing back the lens inside the body, causing damage to the folding mechanism. But this is easy to detect by examining the camera.
The front cell focusing of the Super Ikonta is also a big drawback in my book. At infinity, the Zeiss Tessar is certainly adequate, but the image quality deteriorates when shooting at close range.
Cheers!
Abbazz
To me, the Bessa RF (or its newer sibling the Bessa II) is the best classic folder in 6x9 format. I have a bunch of other folders (Super Ikonta, Mess Ikonta, Agfa Rapid III, Welta, Telka III, Moskva 5) and I find the Bessa to be the most usable and the one delivering the best image quality overall.
As stated by Chippy, the Bessa RF features some decisive advantages over its concurrents: great coupled rangefinder with quite usable viewfinder (for a folder), sturdy construction, good quality unit focusing lens, no prone-to-break mechanical "enhancements" (no view counter, no auto film advance), a wonderful design and a gorgeous black finish...
I frequently read posts form people on various forums complaining about the "flimsy front standard" of the classic Bessa cameras. I think this misconception gets carried over from Ivor Matanle books. In fact, the construction of the Bessa is perfectly adequate and there is no inherent problem with its front standard, which is rather sturdy.
I have seen quite a lot of Bessa RF and Bessa II cameras, and 99% of them were in perfectly good shape, despite their old age -- in fact I would say that it is more frequent to find a Super Ikonta with issues (yellow and blurry viewfinder, out of whack rangefinder, stripped gears) than a Bessa...
There are indeed a few Bessa with bent front standards, but this is the consequence of the owner not knowing how to fold the camera (there is a large button to press) and forcing back the lens inside the body, causing damage to the folding mechanism. But this is easy to detect by examining the camera.
The front cell focusing of the Super Ikonta is also a big drawback in my book. At infinity, the Zeiss Tessar is certainly adequate, but the image quality deteriorates when shooting at close range.
Cheers!
Abbazz
jnoir
Well-known
I like my Bessa RF with Heliar a lot. However, my favorite 6x9 is the Balda Super Pontura. Not easy to find, but for me its focussing system is easier to use, and the rangefinder is brigther and with some nice features, such as the yellow filter and the mask for a perfect vertical alignment. YMMV, though. I am also a bit partial to it because mine sports a Xenar lens, and I like S-K lenses best.
The Ensign Selfix 8-20 with Xpress 105/3.8 is also another of the 6x9 that I use most, but it is a viewfinder camera. Its CRF version, the 8-20 AutoRange, is more like a collector's item, fetching prices around the thousand Euro mark, but I'd go for a couple of nice Bessa RF with Heliar instead.
The Ensign Selfix 8-20 with Xpress 105/3.8 is also another of the 6x9 that I use most, but it is a viewfinder camera. Its CRF version, the 8-20 AutoRange, is more like a collector's item, fetching prices around the thousand Euro mark, but I'd go for a couple of nice Bessa RF with Heliar instead.
chippy
foo was here
So thats where its coming from Abbazz! its an incredibly inaccurate thing to write. i wondered where it was coming from, coincidentally just the other day (before this thread started) someone mentioned it to me in a PM, saying his Bessa RF was fine and didnt have any "wobbly" characteristics as he said some people have mentioned , i thought it was an odd turn of phrase to describe the front lens standard for that camera, not to mention incorrect
i've had a lot of Bessa'a through my hands by now and i have seen a few that have problems with the front, but they show obvious signs of damage (being dropped from a height) or abuse in one way or another...as you say there are tell tale signs to look for when looking for a Bessa, front door not closing neatly with even spacing around the edges is a tell and the chrome struts on the left hand side (from behind the camera) will be bent or bowed, usually showing a gap between them on one with problems. with normal use they are a perfectly sturdy camera for the job up to the task and by enlarge most are fine in good usable condition, 50-70 years later which has to say something positive for it, of course any folding camera that has been dropped from a height or abused will be lucky to come through it unscathed!
i marvel at the engineering of some of the Zeiss Ikon cameras, their front door with struts, its design and strength is one of the best available (borrowed by other companies in japan etc for their cameras is testament to them-and easier to do if front lens doesn't move as a unit), if one is dropped then the front door and standard has a better chance of coming through it undamaged (only a chance though), but other parts on them, more particularly in a CRF version have some fragile parts that will surely break, its not much use having a shell of camera if other bits are broken
. with all that marvellous complicated engineering comes the drawback that if things need servicing/repairing they are not easy to work on and as you say there are many being traded now that have problems of one kind or anothercheers
chippy
chippy
foo was here
the OP was asking about the 524/2 vs Bessa (II) so thats where my comments were directed but certainly there are other 6x9 with CRF up to the task, each with their own little quirks, disadvantages (even the obscenely priced Ensign 820 has its drawbacks) or advantages, still the Bessa RF (has to be about the best looking camera) and Bessa II stack up among (if not) the best, pretty hard to go past a Bessa II though for ticking all the boxes for a reliable everyday 6x9 camera to use, of course there are some others that are fine too and the Welta Weltur was way before it time in 1936, with combined VF & RF w/ easy to see RF patch (it uses yellow filter too), about the biggest VF for a folder of that era and still better than most of later years, great solid construction, no mechanical add ons to break down on this one either, auto moves to infinity when closing front and quite a few other well designed features, its one that compares well to a Bessa II imo. comes in Xenar and Tessar (unit focusing)
but no matter the choice whats emerging in this thread is the preference for unit focusing cameras, and rightly so. always a touchy subject to bring up because it tends to offend users with front cell focusing cameras, however they really are two different class of camera imo. when they introduced self opening folders (as opposed to manual pull out lens folders common before it) along came the front cell focusing camera for mass production, i tend to think it was a big step backwards with Zeiss Ikon a spearhead in that segment of the market and a strange choice to persist in using it on their flagship folders, the Super Ikonta models, no doubt economics over photographic quality governed their choice...
cheers
chippy
jnoir
Well-known
Sure thing boss! ;-) My comment was more intended towards mentioning other cameras - you and others have already made good points in your answers -, I always like it when I ask something about a camera and I end up researching for things previously unknown to me. I guess sometimes I think everybody likes the same
A have a couple of Super Ikontas but I don't really like them for color work. Have a black Weltur with Xenar, too. Heck, I even use a Plaubel Makina IIIR. If I were a newcomer to these classic cameras and had to choose just one camera, I'd indeed go for a unit focusing, CRF. A bunch of features in a relatively small package, tend to have nicer lenses (although even the Bessa RF can be found cheap with an Helomar triplet), and they keep better their resale value. Now that I know better the results I like to get, and how to get them, I find I use vf cameras with triplet lenses most. At least one of my Franka Solida with Radionar is always loaded with film and close to me.
If I were to stick to the OP's question, I'd say that any CLAd folder can perform up to the task, and it's probably a matter of taste for the buyer and getting the best his/her budget can afford. In the end, if he/she likes these cameras, chances are that more will be bought If budget is not a problem, I'd go for the Bessa RF instead of the 524/2. But, IMHO, being able to buy a good camera that you can touch and test beforehand from a trusted seller is also a pro in this situation, if OP is thinking about looking for the Bessa on auction sites.
A have a couple of Super Ikontas but I don't really like them for color work. Have a black Weltur with Xenar, too. Heck, I even use a Plaubel Makina IIIR. If I were a newcomer to these classic cameras and had to choose just one camera, I'd indeed go for a unit focusing, CRF. A bunch of features in a relatively small package, tend to have nicer lenses (although even the Bessa RF can be found cheap with an Helomar triplet), and they keep better their resale value. Now that I know better the results I like to get, and how to get them, I find I use vf cameras with triplet lenses most. At least one of my Franka Solida with Radionar is always loaded with film and close to me.
If I were to stick to the OP's question, I'd say that any CLAd folder can perform up to the task, and it's probably a matter of taste for the buyer and getting the best his/her budget can afford. In the end, if he/she likes these cameras, chances are that more will be bought
If budget is not a problem, I'd go for the Bessa RF instead of the 524/2. But, IMHO, being able to buy a good camera that you can touch and test beforehand from a trusted seller is also a pro in this situation, if OP is thinking about looking for the Bessa on auction sites.
chippy
foo was here
Huh!, thanks, i forgot how friendly this forum was
Sure thing boss! ;-) My comment was more intended towards mentioning other cameras - you and others have already made good points in your answers -, I always like it when I ask something about a camera and I end up researching for things previously unknown to me. I guess sometimes I think everybody likes the same
actually i'm sure it is fun for others as well, at times i am probably guilty of the same things but there is already a great deal to research to keep someone (OP) entertained with the two original camera and their subsequent model variations, details of front cell focus and unit focusing and operations of CRF vs UCRF, without randomly adding another camera into the mix, no offence (truly), is it just me or do others notice that all threads are kinda in danger of ending up reading the same way, with everyone putting their favourite camera in the heap distracting from the topic/question in any further detail. perhaps if you/we going to add one camera then you probably should add all the others for a balanced view, obviously that a huge scope for one thread to cover in detail though
speaking for myself only, i find that for the same reasons (as mentioned above) they dont perform as well for B&W either, they (pics) look muddy in comparison imo
prob the first of its format with a combined RF & VF window (patented about 1934 from memory) if in nice nik can be a sexy camera, they changed to chrome not long after, i like the black better...its only 6x4.5 though so doesn't fit in with 6x9's of this thread (just mentioned for other readers benefit, i realise you know)
interesting that you would only go for a CRF with unit focusing if you were a newcomer but now with more experience prefer a front cell focus, triplet. i imagine back in the 1930's or 40's it certainly would have been the other way around, probably a large percentage today would be the same i am guessing. triplets (particularly the radionar) can produce nice, if not interesting shots, even though they usually have limitations, if you play on or admire their virtues you can get wonderful pictures. I enjoy using them myself although i still much prefer a unit focusing triplet over a front cell focusing triplet, you have to look a further afield than the popular camera models in the folder world to find them though.
If I were to stick to the OP's question, I'd say that any CLAd folder can perform up to the task, and it's probably a matter of taste for the buyer and getting the best his/her budget can afford. In the end, if he/she likes these cameras, chances are that more will be bought
i'd second the point about camera in the hand over one from the auction site/internet ...its a risky business!
cheers
chippy
Joosep
Well-known
Wow. Thanks all for the awesome comments!
I decided not to buy it! If anyone wants it, then in Barcelona Casanova camerastore they have one in very very nice condition for 190€.
Im gonna start collecting towards a Bessa II, like I thougth.
My Rolleicords square format got kinda boring, but the love for medium is still present.
I work at a camerastore and scanning some very old 6x9 is just such a great feeling!
So maybe soon enough I will start taking my 6x9s.
I decided not to buy it! If anyone wants it, then in Barcelona Casanova camerastore they have one in very very nice condition for 190€.
Im gonna start collecting towards a Bessa II, like I thougth.
My Rolleicords square format got kinda boring, but the love for medium is still present.
I work at a camerastore and scanning some very old 6x9 is just such a great feeling!
So maybe soon enough I will start taking my 6x9s.
jnoir
Well-known
Thanks for the hint! I am actually based in Spain, so I'll give a shout to my Catalonian friends, maybe one of them is tempted ;-)
jnoir
Well-known
Guilty as charged
You are completely right, no offence taken A favorite of yours to mention? It's a bit OT but Joosep already got his answer so, if you don't mind...
The last camera I've bought is an Ensign Commando with Ensar (triplet) and film plane focussing, a là Mamiya Six.In my case, if I want tack sharp pictures, nice contrast, etc. then I take the Mamiya 7II or the Pentacon Six TL