ZEISS LENSES with L39 mount.

[sabears]

Hallo to all,I saw a lot of interest about these lenses in the past ,mainly about wartime 5cm.Sonnar .
Now we have the chance to know all about these lenses ,not only about Sonnar but even about others Zeiss Lenses in Leica screw mount.
As all of us know we have the privilege to have in the RFF the well known expert Marc James Small.
Well,why don't ask him in order to have finally a clear sight ?

(Thank you in advance Marc...).


So,my first question,why Zeiss made such these lenses for Leica (a competitor) and at the end what were the focal lenghts they made and how much was the approximate production (I mean how much ...3,5cm....5,0cm....) ?
I ask because this is not totally clear ,at least to me,I have listened different opinions.

Marc,please,turn on the light.

 

[Marc James Small]

The German Optical Industry was run by the head of Zeiss, Heinz Küppenbender. The Germans needed steel from Sweden, so Küppenbender decided that the Germans could swap IIIC Leica cameras with CZJ lenses to Sweden to pay for the steel. They also hawked these in Spain, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein.

Marc

 

[Marc James Small]

I should have noted that Leitz Thread-Mount (LTM) is not the same as L39. L39 is a DIN thread-mount: 39mm by 1mm. True LTM is 30mm by 26 turns-per-inch Whitworth with a 28.6mm back-focus. The Soviets got this wrong before WWII with the early FED cameras and the Japanese got it wrong after WWII with the early Canon cameras. Whitworth is a wonderful thread as it does not normally come unscrewed accidentally, but it is an expensive thread to make. Today, it only survives in photography on macro lenses such as the Leitz Photars and the Zeiss Luiminars and the like, which use the "Royal Screw", the screw-mount in Whitworth adopted by the Royal Microscope Society around 1880.

Marc

 

[sabears]

The German Optical Industry was run by the head of Zeiss, Heinz Küppenbender. The Germans needed steel from Sweden, so Küppenbender decided that the Germans could swap IIIC Leica cameras with CZJ lenses to Sweden to pay for the steel. They also hawked these in Spain, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein.

Marc

Thank you Marc,do you think that Heinz Küppenbender choice /preference ( a Zeiss lens on a Leica camera) was even in order to help both Zeiss and Leitz production and sales ?

 

[sabears]

I should have noted that Leitz Thread-Mount (LTM) is not the same as L39. L39 is a DIN thread-mount: 39mm by 1mm. True LTM is 30mm by 26 turns-per-inch Whitworth with a 28.6mm back-focus. The Soviets got this wrong before WWII with the early FED cameras and the Japanese got it wrong after WWII with the early Canon cameras. Whitworth is a wonderful thread as it does not normally come unscrewed accidentally, but it is an expensive thread to make. Today, it only survives in photography on macro lenses such as the Leitz Photars and the Zeiss Luiminars and the like, which use the "Royal Screw", the screw-mount in Whitworth adopted by the Royal Microscope Society around 1880.

Marc

Very interesting Marc!
Do you mean that Zeiss lenses were made with the proper Royal screw mount?

 

[Marc James Small]

Once Speer was named as the Minister of Munitions for the Third Reich, Germany adopted a very centralized system. Germany had to pay for Wolframite (Tungsten ore) from Spain and for Swedish steel, so the sale to these nations of optical gear was a reasonable choice -- valuata for valuata. Leitz had been restricted to the manufacture of camera bodies, while Zeiss was primarily producing optics, so the mix of Leica bodies and CZJ lenses made sense.

The Leica thread-mount is not the Royal Screw. The Royal Screw is 0.7965" by 36 turns per inch Whitworth. Aren't you glad you asked? <he grins>

Marc

 

[sabears]

Hallo Marc, I saw a to me unknow lens.
It's a Carl Zeiss lens in screw mount 4,5/90mm Tele- Anastigmat,wartime (25xxetc. range) coupled.
Do you know something more about it?

Thank you and best greetings!

 

[rustysheepdog]

". . . Leitz had been restricted to the manufacture of camera bodies, while Zeiss was primarily producing optics, so the mix of Leica bodies and CZJ lenses made sense".Marc

Very intersting, and I surely didn't know that. Does it mean that Leitz had been stopped from making lenses altogether?

 

[Marc James Small]

I can find no record of any CZJ Tele-Anastigmat in the 2,xxx,xxx range. At least, none are listed in II Thiele. Could you double-check the lens type (I would suspect a Triotar, perhaps?) and the exact serial nmber, and I can probably tell you more. This lens may be a forgery.

From 1942 until 1945, the German optical industry limited the number of lenses made by Leitz, and most such production was limited to government use, military, police, administrative, or the like. Leitz had excess camere-production capacity but they would have had to expand their lens production lines to accomodate all the cameras they could make, hence the choice to use CZJ lenses on Leitz cameras intended for export.

Marc

 

[sabears]

Marc,you have a mp-

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Marc,

I had never realized that RMS (which I had always believed to be the oldest standardized thread in the world) and Whitworth (possibly the second oldest, now I come to think about it) shared so much. Damn! I shall now have to investigate this further. Can you point me in the direction of any useful general works.

It is distressing, is it not, that so many people are taken in by the 39x1mm/39mm x 26 tpi? I was, in my History of the 35mm Still Camera (Focal Press). My only excuse was that we knew an awful lot less in the early 80s.

Shame you'll not be at photokina. Would have been great to meet.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Marc James Small]

Roger

Wikipedia is a grand source for this. There is also a good UK website on the history of threads, but I will have to dig that one out -- I seem to have mislaid the link.

Whitworth was developed in 1841 and uses a 55-degree pitch on the threads. Virtually all other threads are at a 60-degree pitch. Whitworth is a bit harder to produce but is less like to come unscrewed unintentionally.

RMS is 0.8" by 36 tpi at a 60-degree pitch. I believe that this was adopted by the Royal Microscopical Society around 1865 and was made international at a conference in Brussels around 1875. I will try to dig this out -- I believe I have a lengthy footnote on this in my LTM lens book.

Another survival of Whitworth in photography are tripod mounts and sockets. Both the 1/4" and 3/8th inch mountings are in Whitworth.

MG was long damned by US car mechanics for using Whitworth. What is odd is that the Morris concerns actually went metric late in the First War. They just produced the fasteners for their cars in Whitworth.

Marc


RMS is

 

[johannielscom]

Marc,

with Leitz we are fortunate to have a productions register which states camera and lense numbers, batch numbers, clients etc.

Over time, I have found some references on the internet to a similar list for CArl Zeiss, but never found any list itself.

Was there ever a list of Zeiss production (particularly concerning the 35mm and 50mm lenses)? And, would it possibly be available on the net somewhere?

 

[Marc James Small]

CZJ/CZ Lens Data

CZJ/CZ Lens Data

Helmut Thiele has produced three volumes on Zeiss lens data derived from the factory records -- there are two volumes on CZJ production and one on CZ production from Oberkochen. The CZJ volumes are thorough and complete but Oberkochen does not seem to have kept accurate records, especially for the 1950's. These books list the lens type, date of design, serial number range, and date of production, along with a listing for the mount, although this is sometimes indeciphrable, as in "R60".

Marc

 

[johannielscom]

Thanks guys for the references to books. I'll look into that soon, summer holiday is coming and I will have time to read and study things of my own choice 🙂

 

[dexdog]

Latching on to one of Brian Sweeney's threads at the ZI Forum, my recent experience with a CZJ 50/2 LTM lens.

http://www.ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=466

 

[LeicaTom]

Marc,

What can you tell us about the various engravings stamped on some WW2 era Zeiss lenses?

How are they similar or different from the engravings seen on some WW2 era Leica lenses, and what German militray Branches used Zeiss LTM lenses?

Tom

 

[Marc James Small]

Engravings are unique to the factory. CZJ and its satellite facilities used one type of engravings, Leitz used a different sort. The layout is backwards -- Leitz engravings are "upside down" compared to CZJ engravings. CZJ used the international aperture scale, while Leitz stuck with the European scale into the 1950's. Zeiss went over to marking its lenses in mm shortly after the end of the war, while Leitz stuck with cm into the late 1950's. Both Leitz and CZJ used a lower-case m to indicate lens scales in meters.

There is no rigid rule about which German military service used which camera. U-Boats were equipped with a Contax II periscope camera kit. A few Leicas were used by combat photographers -- Theo Kisselbach comes to mind -- but, then, so were Rolleiflex and Super Ikonta MF cameras and some LF gear as well. Most military-procured cameras were used by the non-military government agencies. The Gestapo, for instance, preferred to use Rolleiflex TLR's for ID photos, to the horror of both Franke and Heidecke.

The Luftwaffe procured most miniature-format cameras for all government users, which is why they are marked "Luftwaffe Eigentum", though most of these cameras were used by the Post Office or the like. The Kriegsmarine procured most MF gear. But, gain, there are always exceptions.

Marc

 

[LeicaTom]

Engravings are unique to the factory. CZJ and its satellite facilities used one type of engravings, Leitz used a different sort. The layout is backwards -- Leitz engravings are "upside down" compared to CZJ engravings. CZJ used the international aperture scale, while Leitz stuck with the European scale into the 1950's. Zeiss went over to marking its lenses in mm shortly after the end of the war, while Leitz stuck with cm into the late 1950's. Both Leitz and CZJ used a lower-case m to indicate lens scales in meters.

There is no rigid rule about which German military service used which camera. U-Boats were equipped with a Contax II periscope camera kit. A few Leicas were used by combat photographers -- Theo Kisselbach comes to mind -- but, then, so were Rolleiflex and Super Ikonta MF cameras and some LF gear as well. Most military-procured cameras were used by the non-military government agencies. The Gestapo, for instance, preferred to use Rolleiflex TLR's for ID photos, to the horror of both Franke and Heidecke.

The Luftwaffe procured most miniature-format cameras for all government users, which is why they are marked "Luftwaffe Eigentum", though most of these cameras were used by the Post Office or the like. The Kriegsmarine procured most MF gear. But, gain, there are always exceptions.

Marc

Do you have some photo examples of the WW2 military engravings on the LTM lenses? (not aperture scales, but the service engravings)

And did the Zeiss factory add the military markings, or the agency issued? (as were all military marked Leica's) ~ do the Zeiss records show the different services where military lenses were issued?

Tom

 

[Marc James Small]

No on all points. I might have some photos of military marked lenses but, if so, these would be buried away in reference books or in the backfiles of the ZEISS HISTORICA SOCIETY JOURNAL. Miniature-format gear was obtained by the Luftwaffe, and they were responsible for the appropriate military engravings, as the Kriegsmarine was responsible for the engravings on medium format gear.

Marc